Good morning. Um, I don't know where you are in the world. Actually. Could you all tell us, tell us in the chat where you are in the world? I'm from the UK, but I'm based in Spain. So it's just after 10 o'clock in the morning.Ah, all over the place. Germany, Edinburgh, Slovenia, Austria, India, Dresden. Wow. Loads of people fabulous. Ok. So, welcome. Welcome. Um, my name is Michelle Gemma and today I'm going to talk to you about negotiating away your personal gender pay gap. So, the pay gap, the conversation usually focuses on what you can do in the workplace. Like, how you should have a conversation, what you should say, what you should do, et cetera. And all of that is fabulous and all of that is necessary. It's important to have those very practical skills around, you know, what to talk about and how you do it, et cetera. But in my experience from working with women who are, you know, wanting to negotiate for more in the workplace and close their own pay gaps, one thing comes up time and time again and that is the nervousness around doing it even though practically, there shouldn't be any reason for it.

You shouldn't have pay gaps of any description. So if you know that there's an issue and you are looking for a way to rectify it, that in of itself isn't a problem, it shouldn't be. But what I find is that a lot of women really struggle with the idea of deserving it or being able to do it and they worry about how they're going to be perceived, et cetera. And so for me, the gender pay gap is actually it's a story, it's a story around women and money. And this is part of the reason why so many of us women in particular find it really hard to actually self advocate. So what does that money story look like? Well, there are stories that we glean from society from the workplace and then things that we tell ourselves. So in terms of society and the messaging, et cetera, we get messages that, you know, that we can't be trusted with more money or more agency. I'm sure you can think of, you know, times when you've opened up the paper and you know, the comments that are made around, you know, rich people and rich women in particular, they're not very nice.

It's always very judgmental and it's this idea that, you know, it's not safe for us to have more money that, you know, a dangerous woman is somebody who is able to self advocate. Um And you know, and and is willing to go into a workplace and ask for more and then you have to think about the sector that you work in. So obviously, this is, you know, women in tech, think about the technology sector. And it's almost as if they're saying, well, you know, tech is for men first and if you want to be in this space with us, you have to adapt to us, you have to adapt to the way that we do things. And if you don't like it, then that's tough. And that's really hard, not just in the tech sector but any male dominated sector to kind of break free of that money story. Again that, you know, if you're male, then it's much easier and almost more natural for you to power and responsibility and ie earn more money. And that when we try to do that debt sometimes is, you know, really, really fierce because we're stepping out of that money narrative.

And then if you put what we're learning from society, if you put what we're learning from our workplaces together, then it's no wonder that we are in a space where we start to question ourselves. Like I'm sure you, you can think of times where you have found out that someone else has been paid more than you. Um And you're just thinking to yourself. Well, why not me? What's, what's happened here? And if that has happened to you, I would love to see you to kind of put something in the chat about that. But it's a really common thing that comes up. And what happens is because of what society is telling you because of, you know, what's happening, you know, within the, your sector, you start to question yourself. You start to think. Hm. Ok. Well, maybe it is my fault and there are people out there that will say the pay gap is women's fault because, and they will list all sorts of things. You know, they choose low paying careers, you choose to have a baby, you don't speak up and you ask them all. And so we get into this headspace of thinking. Well, actually, maybe the pay gap is inevitable, maybe it is my fault.

And even though we deep down, don't believe that you internalize it. And the problem with that is that when you internalize it for yourself, you are putting your dreams on hold, you put your ambitions on hold, you are stopping you from being the greatest person that you could be. And we also accept it for our Children as well because remember, you know, our Children and the next generation coming through, they're looking at us as role models, whether we realize it or accept it or not. And so for me, the gender pay gap issue is a huge, huge money story that fundamentally says money is not for women, you can't be trusted with it. It's not for you. And you know, and because start to internalize it and we tell ourselves that actually that is logic. That is common sense. But what I would like to put to you is that it's not common sense, it's not logic. And you can ask for more, you can have money and you deserve to have that. If you want it side, why me, why am I the about this today? Well, I discovered the gender pay gap by accident.

So I was working at the Court and Human Rights Commission for about 10 years. And when I started, I applied for a role to be um an equal pay policy manager, didn't know anything about it. Got the job and then I had to hit the running as it were because it was my job to teach them about equal pay and to teach them a job about the gender pay gap. And I felt like my world was being completely opened and I was in a position where I started to realize that actually some of these things in the workplace had happened to me as well, but I, I either didn't realize it or I minimized why that it was important to do something about it.

And I found myself in a position where, you know, after I'd had my first baby and I was trying to look for work meaningful work that paid well and gained the flexibility that I was looking for I couldn't find it and I didn't have the confidence to speak up and to ask more despite all of the years where I'd learned all that technical knowledge and I had been doing that work and, you know, advising employers, but I got to a place where I decided enough was enough.

And if it wasn't me, that was going to be talking about this educating women about what they can do what's in their sphere of influence, then who was it going to be? So now my purpose is to share what I know far and wide. And so I hope that you get something out of today's session. So what are the myths around, you know, money and women? There are so many but because we only have 20 minutes for this session, I've had to like kind of condense it down to a few is that Rich Bitch syndrome. And it's that thing of if you are somebody who asks for more or has more and there's something wrong with you if you're a woman. Yeah. Does any of this resonate? So, you know, when we think about, you know, women that have lots of money or even who are ambitious, there's all sorts of connotations that come with it that are not given to men, but they are readily and easily given to women. So Rich Bitch is the thing that comes to mind and obviously, you know, who wants to be called that now, there are some people who are reclaiming that, but it takes a lot of mindset work to be able to kind of reclaim that as something, you know, really, really positive.

But, you know, in the first instance, everyone's like, oh no, I don't want to be that person. So then it's again feeding into that thing of you don't deserve money because we're going to call you that and we know that will make you uncomfortable. So that will keep you in your place that we don't deserve more money because we're frivolous. So as well as being called a rich bitch as well as having the gender pay gap. So we're earning less money. We're then told how to spend our money and because we're frivolous, we just want to buy pink biros, pink razors and it's that, that's that saying, isn't it shrink it and pink it and we'll buy it. Yeah. So I don't know if any of you remember the pink V razor, um that, that came out a couple of years ago and they got absolutely slated for suggesting, you know that this was a pen for women and women were just like we just want a pen that works. Why does you know, and so again, it's that feeding into us that, you know, that we're frivolous, we spend the money on the rubbish and that they can throw rubbish at us and we will buy it because, you know, hey, that is what we want. And then we come to this one about danger. And the fact that a woman who realizes her work is a dangerous woman. And this, I think for me is a real fundamental fear that unfortunately, a lot of men actually have.

And it's not our as you are dangerous, but the seed is planted in the way that we are described and talked about if we step out of line, if we, um you know, if we are honest about our feelings, if we ask for the things that we want. Good example of this is during the 2016 US presidential race between Trump and Hillary Clinton. He called her woman two words, two small words, so so loaded. What he was saying is this woman is dangerous because according to this quote, she realizes her worth and that makes her dangerous. Whereas if a man was talking about the things that, you know, he believes and is passionate, he's ambitious, he's a go getter. But when we do it dangerous, so they are the kind of overarching money stories that we probably have been soaking up. But without realizing, and it's also something that, you know, our, you know, our hiring managers are line managers, you know, people who are making decisions around, you know, reward and bonus and hiring promotions, et cetera soaking up too. And this is where, you know, our biases can come into play whether we are making decisions on behalf of other people or whether we're making decisions on behalf of ourselves.

So the next time that you're in a space where you're thinking, OK, I want to go for that promotion. I want to ask for something or to set boundaries, you really check in to ensure that you, you know, understand maybe some of your own vices that you're taking on, on board and check in to look for ways to kind of mitigate them and separate fact from fiction. So I want to talk to you about somebody that and, and I think it's important. So, yes, I've talked about, you know, the aspects that perhaps, um, are really troubling and can be emotionally fraught, which stops us from wanting to negotiate and wanting to ask for more. But that doesn't mean that you can't do it. So I want you to meet Emma obviously, that's not her real name and that's not, that's not her picture. But she came to me because she was looking for a role after redundancy. Um, and she had had a job interview, she thought she was going to be offered the job and she wanted to take it. But there were certain things that wasn't available. And she said to me, I make a point of n something around this time is making me really uncomfortable. So I need some help in doing this.

And she said to me that she understood the principle of asking for more and she does it for herself and she's doing it for other women. So we worked together on how we could kind of get through some of those money blocks so that she could ask for more. And this is what she got. So she got the part time working that she wanted, she didn't get the salary that she wanted. But what she was offered was a sponsored two year development program. And what she said to me was that if she had not negotiated for more salary, she would not have been offered this development program and that she was very, very grateful for the coaching. So what this is an example of what can happen when you do ask. And here's the thing when you ask, sometimes you'll get a yes, sometimes you'll get a no, sometimes you'll get a maybe or an alternative and there's no way of guaranteeing what you're going to get. But a lot of people get into that space of what if I get a no, if you get a no, that's data, that's information for you to work with. But if you don't ask, you will never an example of what can happen when you do ask. So what I want you to think about is why do you want to close your pay gap? Yeah. So there could be all sorts of different reasons. It could be because you're sick of struggling. It could be because to be a better role model for your Children.

You could feel that being paid fairly is, you know, is a mark of respect and that for you, that's the basic work requirement. You just want more career choices. If you put yourself out there, then who knows what opportunities can come to you? Because you've made it known that you want more or it could be simply that, you know, you're worth more and that it's safe for you to aspire. So what are you willing to do to close your pay gap on your terms where you have to take control? And this is about you being the CEO as it were of your career. I see a lot of people who believe that their managers have their best interests at heart and they sit and they wait for recognition that you can't do that. You have to take control and you have to be prepared to be uncomfortable. So I've just seen that there um comments in the chat which I'll come to in a minute, but there is definitely, uh you know, an element of this being excruciating and you might get really bad pushback and it might make you feel personally rejected that you have to accept that that's part and parcel and you have to get used to hearing no, but it's about you asking more questions and being true to yourself because you know, if you are truthful to yourself, you can be the best that you want to be in your workplace.

So what does that mean for you? Well, it means that you need to do what you actually want from your career. So don't allow other people's limiting beliefs about you define who you can be at work if you want to ask for more, whatever more looks like, whether it's more money, um whether it's more flexibility, whether it's a specific course that you want to go on or specific development, whatever it is, be yourself and be unapologetic about wanting that and feeling confident in.

Don't believe the hype. Yeah. So think about all the, you know, there's always somebody who has an opinion about what you should and shouldn't do in your career. Oh, you can't ask for that much. Oh, you can't go for that job, but you can't do this. It could be your inner critic telling you this. It could be society, it could be, you know, it could be your mom, it could be your friends. Now accept that other people have opinions but they don't have to be yours. Always think about asking more questions. So get curious about your possibilities and remember that just because, you know, your employer hasn't said to you, these are all the things that, you know, we can give you in this job role doesn't mean that there aren't other things that are on the table and it's OK and it's safe to be the first at something.

So the thing that I want you to take away the most he's ask for more. So we have a couple of minutes left. So I'm just gonna have a look in the chat. So if, if anybody has any more questions, then please do pop them in. But I'm just gonna have a look at the chat and say, oh gosh, is this done there? Brilliant? All right, let's have a look, sorry. Lots of people from all over the place. So, um Shruti says I've heard need to say women need to be assigned less complex tasks. Yeah, that is that is that is bias coming coming through. So one of the hardest, uh the T says, one of the hardest situations to navigate is when the manager says it's because of your performance that you deserve less. How can as a woman, can you address this? Well, I would, I would ask for evidence. I would ask for evidence of how they're measuring what performance looks like it quite often um that in, in of itself can be riddled with bias and sometimes, you know, managers because they're not equipped in having these conversations. Well, can off the cuff comments in the hope that you would just accept it and go away. So ask, you know, how, how is everybody being measured and am I being measured to the same standards as everybody else? So I would ask for evidence and shy.

There's a definite unsaid practice of punishing women for taking maternity breaks in the form of low lower pay revision and bless, how do you confront something that's unsaid in the background? Yeah. And you know, this, this does happen a lot again, it's about, you know, under getting in writing or at least having an adult conversation to find out what expectations are coming back from maternity and ensuring that it matches what you should be paid and bonus. And I think, and quite a lot of that is addressing the kind of presenteeism and productivity issue because I think a lot of workplaces are still in that space of focusing on presenteeism rather than what outputs people actually have. Um As I Sarah saying, by coming ready with what you've achieved the value that you've brought track your accomplishments, etcetera. Yeah. And people always say that you should have um a diary and keep track of everything that you've um you've ever done as it were. And Nicole says so true and the sad part is even women are doing it to each other even if we don't want to. Exactly. And it's almost like that's how the system kind of works that everybody is complicit. And so it is about understanding and seeing that for what it is and then making the conscious effort to, to do differently. Um Shuti says, men are seen as financial support for the family, women's earning as secondary contributors and hence they don't need that money again.

It's like outdated modes of thinking and sometimes that can base, that can influence, you know, hiring managers, you know, decisions around who gets a bonus and who doesn't, or who gets a bigger salary and who doesn't. So n she says I recently got into a new job. I was asked my salary expectations were, and was given the exact amount. I still think I undersold myself. I should have asked for more. Ok. So you think that now that's fine. There are always to negotiate in the future in this role. And you've learned something and you now know that they gave that to you. So who knows what's possible? So get curious about what you could do next time. Um Somebody says I hired a girl on my team who told me candidly in the interview that she wants to move out of her current role as she was replaced by summer while she was away for six months on maternity break. She said there's no performance review and salary raise. Yes. And she's one of the top performers in your team. I know, you know, going on maternity leave. Um shouldn't be a complete demotion. Unfortunately, for a lot of women, that is exactly what happens. Even if he asked for promotion was seen as different is when a man asks to say he is com Yeah. And it, and it's crime. There's, there's just no, there's no, there's just no way around that.

But I think we just have to, with that and accept that being called difficult is not the end of the world. It's not nice. I, 100% know how that feels, but you have to think about putting yourself first. What, what is the risk of not doing this? What's the risk to me if I don't do this? Yeah. What's, and what's the impact if I do do this? She says, struggle asking for more. That's what I struggle with. Yeah, it's difficult. And when we do speak up, we are challenged. But it will change though. Yes, you're right. It will change. Unfortunately, some will pay the price more but it's worth it. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, we, we need to see those trailblazers and, you know, and it is unfortunate that sometimes those trailblazers are bear the brunt, but they're, they're doing it for themselves and by extent they're doing it for us as well. And if we, and if we make a point of doing it more often, slowly, we will see, start to see the shift in, in others behaviors. Ok? Um Good companies with good culture attempts to sell the, they are winning candidates since they ask what to expect and then say, oh, we gave them what we asked for. Yes.

So a way to counteract that um if it's in a job interview is to talk about your expectations and to set them and to set them high. Because if you go in with a specific salary and then they give you that, then they will say, well, that's what you asked for because they're never going to tell you you can ask for more. So it is about, you know, being smart, doing your research, but also feeling confident enough in the moment to ask for more. Um And yes, we are conditioned not to be greedy, but it's not greed, it's not greed, it's just, it's just understanding your, your, your self worth. OK, wonderful. So how often should I keep remembering about the pay talk? When I start the conversation? The manager says he will, she will look into it, but they don't come back with an answer until I remind them that sometimes it's uncomfortable. Um I think, I think you probably need to speak to them and ask for very specific dates around when it's going to happen. Um And you probably have performance reviews, but it is, it is going to be a case of ensuring that you are always top of mind and whilst you're doing it, make sure that you keep a log of all of the work that you're doing.

So that when you do have the conversation, you are prepared and ready. And here's the thing, some managers are not very well equipped to have these conversations so it could be that there's nervousness on their part. They don't know how to handle it and they're trying to put it off. But if you are persistent. I would, you know, be checking in every couple of months around, you know, when is that day coming up? And hopefully you sh you should get someone, you could get someone. Ok. And Sherry says remembering it's a business transaction. Yes, it is a business transaction. It's nothing personal. Um it's not about whether you deserve it or feel good enough even though you might feel like that, even though that's the way the conversation is, but it's a business transaction. You have a skill, you uh need to produce something and your employer wants you to do it. So that is as simple as it is. So my time is up, I think actually I've gone over by about five. I hope that you have found this useful and enjoyable. Please do pick me up um on linkedin. Uh My name is Michelle Gyma. My surname is spelled Gy I MA h and I would be more than happy to connect with you. So I hope you enjoyed this talk and I hope that you enjoy the rest of the talks.

I'm going to check some of them out and I shall see you all soon. All right.