Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for attending the session. We know you had a ton of options.So we appreciate you giving us some time here as you saw from the abstract Jen and Wui and I are here to talk about finding balance in your life and while the balance we're really talking about and we're trying to achieve is parenting. So being an awesome ambitious employee and also a present and hands on mom, we recognize that's not the only balance people are trying to achieve, right? So you could be in a position of caring for an aging parent or a sick parent. You could be working towards a second degree or even your first degree. Um or you could just be ensuring you have time for your hobby, right? Golf lessons or getting yoga certified or, you know, my secret obsession of scrolling tiktok at night. Um So our hope is you take away a few tips today, regardless of the reason you're trying to find balance, that some of these are helpful with you. So from an agenda perspective, we're going to start with some quick intros and then Wang Gui is gonna take five minutes just to run through some findings in a recent report that Microsoft published, uh it's called their work Trend Index.

And it highlights just some of that paradoxes that companies are now trying to have to manage through flexibility, being just one of those that was really brought to the forefront by COVID, but that we've all been seeking for years. Um And then you're gonna hear some of our own learnings and stories along the way. So we're happy to take any questions. By the way, if you put them in chat, we're gonna save time for those at the end. If we don't get to them, we will reach back to you through the conference app or you can find us on linkedin. Uh So I'll start with, you know, the introduction of me and who I am. Uh So my name is Kate Reed. Uh and you can see if you go to the next chart. I live in the wonderful state of Massachusetts, unlike Wang Gui and Jen. Uh I love snowy, New England. Um And in the winter and I love spending times in Maine in the summer uh with my family. I am a wife. I am a mom of two amazing Children, Nathan and Charlotte. I am a dog mom now, buddy is my favorite, favorite child. Just don't tell my other ones. Um And, and that's a little about me. I started my from a career perspective. I started my career as a wedding planner, which was a lot of fun, but the hours were so grueling. So I moved from a wedding planning to corporate events. And from there, I just expanded into all sorts of types of marketing rules.

So today I'm the CMO for Cindy. Cindy is a data management company based in Massachusetts. I think it's uh the best kept secret in the world. Um It's a great company. I love being here prior to joining Cindy, I spent 15 years at IBM and a variety of different roles most recently as the CMO of the security division. So my day job is managing, you know, all aspects of marketing globally. But what really fuels me each day is building out strong teams and in particular helping to advance um you know, opportunities for females in technology. And with that naturally comes advocating for work life integration. So that is a little about me. Um I am going to go ahead and pass it to Wang Gui to introduce herself.

Thank you, Kate. Hi, everybody. I'm Wanui mckelvey. Uh I am the General manager of our Microsoft 365 business um and a subset of that that I focus on is around Windows office, outlook management, all of your favorite productivity tools. I hope. Um so if you go to the next slide, um uh just a little bit about me. I actually do not live in Massachusetts. I can't stand the cold. I live in Atlanta. Um but my heritage is Kenyan. My, I'm first generation American, my family is from Kenya. Um And I grew up in Washington DC, but I have been in Atlanta about 22 years now. I'm also a mom and a wife as well to three beautiful girls. And um and I get the awesome opportunity to, to lead a fantastic product marketing team here um at Microsoft. Um and then if you look at my career journey um similar to Kay, I um started off um in um I wouldn't say a wedding planning role, but it was more of a uh internship. I started out as an intern at the Washington Post in DC. And um ended up after college going to the Kroger company in Indianapolis, Indiana uh to be a store manager, which was a fantastic role for a 22 year old to learn how to run a business, which is a amazing, I still go back to some of those lessons today.

Um Then went back to the post for a while and then landed in Atlanta at an ad agency and found my way to IBM through an acquisition uh for a company that IBM had acquired in Atlanta and was there for 13 years and um worked alongside these lovely ladies while I was there uh in my last role there, I was um CMO of our Red Hat market place and our hybrid cloud ecosystem teams.

And it's been about a year and a half now here at Microsoft. And so, um it's been a really great journey so far and um, and like Kate said, for me, balance is such a um important lesson for us all to learn and, and we don't always get it right. So, um we're gonna be really excited to have this conversation with you guys today. So next, let me hand it over to Jen to introduce herself.

Hi. So I am Jen Atkins. Um Jen Jennifer is when I'm in trouble. Um I am the CMO of Dunn and Brad Street and um and like when go said, worked with these two lovely ladies at IBM. Um So I am uh I am a mom of two wonderful Children, Piper and River um live in Austin, Texas because I apparently like it hotter than anyone uh where, where we really appreciate our 100 degree uh summers and um you know, I think my career journey um like, like Kate Wu didn't really start from a place of, oh, I'm gonna be a marketer.

Um I actually started in graphic design and was doing, you know, back in the, in the late nineties, doing lots of websites for people and getting told, oh, that design doesn't work for this and that. And so I picked up a book, learned how to be a developer and actually spent quite a lot of my uh early career doing websites and, and doing coding. Um which was amazing. And, and I had a lot of fun and uh an early mentor, I was working on a website said, why aren't you in marketing? You're rewriting all my headlines and you seem to have a lot to say. And so, uh I made the switch and it was the best switch and, um actually, you know, went on to found my own agency for a while, um which was a ton of fun and then got a call from IBM and it was that same mentor that was very early in my career, said you should be a marketer.

Um I ended up working with at IBM. So it was a, a nice full circle moment. Um And then uh at IBM was uh over the systems um storage and quantum uh divisions for marketing. So lots of fun and diverse, diverse experiences there. And then uh I like when I've been at uh at uh Dunn and Brad Street for a little over a year. Um And it's been, it's been an amazing experience.

All right. So um as Kate said, I'm gonna just quickly just sort of start the conversation with some research. Um We conduct here at Microsoft a research um what we call our work trends index. And it started a couple of years ago, obviously uh at the start of the pandemic. And we really wanted to sort of understand what this uh pandemic was doing to the work economy as we know it. And so just some really interesting findings. Um and we, this study is about 30,000 people in 30 different countries. And so what we found was that um people are really wanting flexibility to remain post pandemic. 73% of respondents said they want flexibility to, to to remain. But then another 67 7% said actually, we want more in-person collaboration also. And so you kind of see this, have your cake and eat it too sort of scenario where um companies and organizations are trying to figure this out. And then in our most recent study that we just released a couple of weeks ago, um this worth it equation started to emerge where people are really evaluating, you know, is it really worth it for me to, to stay in this role? And so we see um a lot of folks, especially the younger generation, Gen Z's uh millennials, who are you, you know, really becoming a, a vast population of the workforce are really trying to understand, well, you know, what is it worth it?

And I'm gonna actually prioritize health and well being as part of the worth it equation when it comes to work. And so ladies, I wanted to start the conversation here, how are you seeing this play out in your own lives in your own teams? Um And, and what do you think of all of this sort of new patterns of work that we're all seeing emerged.

Yeah, I think, I think for me, what I love about it is there's no one right way. Right. Like when I started years ago in marketing, you were in the office every single day, then it was ok. Now we're, you know, to kind of do this hybrid to now completely at home. And I think what it, it, it sort of is like, you know, you're always here, bring your whole self to work and, and figure out what works for you and what flexibility you need. And what I like about these numbers from an employee perspective, for me is it shows there's not one right way from a leading a team perspective, it can be hard to manage all of it because there is no one way. And so you, you almost feel like you're always not pleasing someone, right? And, and I think it's why it has to go back to the employee. And part of what you'll hear me say later is about, it's up to us to create our boundaries and our flexibility and our balance. And I think these numbers lead to that. Um And I love seeing the wellness piece, the health and well being piece. I think that's something that especially as moms we put to the side. And I know personally for me if I don't have that block of time, I'm not as good of a mom or a CMO if I don't take that health and well being peace. Seriously.

Yeah. And I think on the, you know, especially around the hybrid piece, I think what I know I found is that I, I've worked with remote teams for a long time and, and it actually, it, a lot of it works but without the social interaction, without those, we need to come together and kind of white board.

Everybody who knows me knows, I love a white board and I've got markers for, for everything. But, you know, without that time in person, there are, there are sort of appropriate moments where, you know, you come together, you do sort of build up that social capital again. So that when you go back to your computer, you know, that those relationships are there. It's, it's hard to establish the relationships I think with meeting, to meeting, to meeting, to meeting and you don't get the cafeteria moments, the water cooler moments. And so that balance of the two, I think, you know, I found really works well. Yeah.

So, so let's so thank you for that. Thank you for just grounding us in some data and some research and, and really helping us see how the workforce is changing and what people are expecting. I I'm gonna, I'm gonna start Jen with you uh for a few reasons, one, you don't love the word balance and that's what we're talking about here. But, but more so because you would start to think about balance before you actually had a family. And I think, you know, Wang Gui and I know that about you because we've known you for a while. But I think it helps for anyone considering starting a family hearing your story.

Yeah. So early in my career, I would say I, I didn't, I was over indexed on work, work, work, work, work. I wanted to prove myself. I wanted to take every opportunity. And then, you know, as I went, got into my late twenties and was thinking about, ok, we got married and we're ready to have a family. I got hit with fertility challenges and, you know, going through a fertility journey, all of the sudden everything sort of shifts, you Reprioritize everything. Um not only is it expensive and so you have to do it right? And you have to listen to the, to what they're telling you. Um but it's exhausting, you know, physically emotionally and you have, I had to learn to separate and sort of create those moments for myself and then a lot of it was time bound. So, you know, again, not, not knowing how to have those conversations early in my career. All of a sudden, I just had to do it. I had to say I have to leave. I have to be at the doctor, I have to be at this appointment. And, you know, I think for me and luckily probably for my daughter is that, that journey was, you know, 2.5, 3 years by the time we, we had her.

And so when I did have her, I had a lot of my priorities much straighter than I think I would have had. I just kind of skipped that step. And so, you know, when I went back for maternity leave a company that was wonderful. And that I had an amazing sort of experience and learned so many things for what I realized when I became a mom was, it wasn't the right place for me. It was a little too, you know, fast paced long hours, things that, you know, I just couldn't, couldn't give anymore. And so I moved on and, you know, I think have still lots of great relationships and friends and, and I look at that fondly, but I knew, I think, uh when I became a mom that it just suddenly wasn't the right place for me anymore. So

I think that's such an important point because I think in, in Wangu, I'll talk about this a little bit with, in terms of her career and managing with her husband ebbing and flowing in his career. But I think, you know, it's important to recognize when you came back. So many people would feel guilt about coming back from a maternity leave and then being like, hey, this isn't the right place for me. But the reality is maternity leaves. Everyone who's pregnant has a maternity leave. Right. So, or, or a big company. And so it's, it's ok to say this is no longer serving me because you served them for so long as well. Right. The company so long. And I think we can, we can let that, that guilt get in our way. Um,

they had a big party, you know, it was a great celebration, like I've been there a long time and so, you know, it doesn't always change isn't always a bad thing for the employee or the employer. So.

Exactly. And Wangu, you've had to manage your career rising and your husband's career rising and not always at, sometimes at the same time and not always at the same time. And I think a lot of people have to manage that. So, what, what

tips do you have for that? I mean, I, I think it, it starts with just having a really great partner and, um, really great communication. And so, um, and my husband is a, he's a high, he was a high school band director. And so if you got anybody in your family that's a band person, you know what? It's like, you, it's band practice every day. It's Friday night lights, it's band camp in the summer and it's like, you know, 12 hours days all the time. Right. And so, and he was doing that and so we, it was great when we were first sort of married and didn't have any kids And so, um, I was able to sort of hold down the home front and he was able to go off and do all his trips and things. And then, um, it came a point in time where my career started to pick up and we had a conversation and he was like, I was like, ok, honey, you know, we both are, are really wanted to do really incredible things in our, of our professions, but we cannot do it at the same time.

So let's be really open and um realistic about that. I'm happy to, to continue on this path. But if you want, if I wanna go faster, then we need to talk about how is there a possibility for you to, to slow down a bit and then vice versa. And so it really came down to that. And so he's, he was incredible and it was, it was so interesting because he had like so much of his, his career aspirations happening early in his career that when it was my turn, he was like, oh yeah, I'm done. I've already done everything I wanted to do on the camp. And you go ahead, honey. And so, and that's what happened. He came down from high school, went to elementary school to get more hours back and, and get be done at work by 230. And then it allowed me to sort of accelerate my career and be able to take the executive leadership roles that will require me to travel and all of that. Um And it also happened to coincide when we started to have kids as well, which was also a challenge, but because he had, was able to come down to elementary level and because I was able to have great support at work, we were able to start our family. Um And it, it's so far it's been, it's been working out great. He's still teaching elementary school kids. Um, I don't know, I'm still trying to figure out if he still loves it as much as the high school kids.

But, um, but he loves his time back, which is great, which is really great. So, yeah, I think it really comes down to really great communication and, and openness about what you want as a family and, and then, you know, realistically he's a teacher and I work at corporate America and tech and like the, you know, sad to say teachers don't get paid what we do.

So that's also a big factor. That's a factor.

Absolutely. But I think the communication piece is so critical whether it's with your husband or your, you know, your parent that is going to help with child or your childcare provider, right? It's, it's helping that communication and in my case, it was that communication at work, right?

So, um I had a boss, tell me very early in my career, this company is not responsible for setting your boundaries. Right. That is up to you. And I was sort of like, really? That's not cool. Do I really want to work at this company? But then I understood what he was talking about. Right. Like I was running myself ragged because the emails didn't stop, the meetings didn't stop, the work didn't stop. And I started being resentful of the people that I would see leaving the office at 5 p.m. And I look back at that and I kind of shudder thinking that was a really immature view to take, right? They might have been working just as hard or more efficient than I was. Um But you know, when I, when I spoke to him, he, he even gave examples like, you know, companies will talk about work life balance or work life integration or even go as far as to give you tools like days off or no meeting Wednesdays. But like it's up to you to manage that balance and not for you to manage your personal life and your work life. And so shortly after that conversation, um with him, unfortunately, my father was diagnosed with cancer and I made the choice to take him every Monday to his chemotherapy sessions.

And I just remember at the time that was so daunting like, oh my God, I have to tell my employer this is what I'm gonna do. And you know, it, it was like nothing, nothing mattered of outside of that. And I made up, I didn't lose out on anything for work. I, I made up that work at night or on the weekends and I know it's not ideal to tell people on the weekends. But if you're trying to do something during the weekday, right, you have to, you have to keep doing your work. Um, and I carried that into when I had kids. Right. I set my bo my boundaries. I was really clear with my team and my boss don't find me after five o'clock, you can get me as early as five in the morning till five pm at night. But unless it's an emergency, don't call me. And what I realized was I would still get emails. I would still get calls. I had to be the one to not accept them or not respond just like when I'm sending someone an email at 530 in the morning, I don't expect them to respond. Um But I think what while it seems very hard to do, my advice would be if you, if you double click on those moments, right?

If I think of what I would have missed with my kids, if I think of the time I got to spend with my father before he passed away, those are, those are things you're never gonna regret, but it, it comes down to communicating them and taking responsibility for them and really standing behind them.

Um So communication is key.

Yeah, and Kate, something that, you know, I think is important is, you know, we all, and I think we all recognize and, and even just prepping for this and knowing each other, um, you know, we all have really supportive partners and that is always not the case. And so I think, you know, sort of recognizing also, you know, I think we're all very passionate about sort of giving back to other women and mentoring and, and other things, some of that is I've picked up people's kids from daycare because they have the important meeting and they're a single mom.

And I just sort of recognizing some of those moments too on. There's other ways to be an ally, there's other ways to be a sister to say I got you. You know, I will entertain your kid in my office and we will color while you go to the important meeting and absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

So true. So

true. So while we're on that topic of kind of communicating boundaries and helping others, you know, Jen, give me, give me some examples um in one go of where you lead by example here, you know, what, how do you show your teams that you were gonna be supportive of them doing this?

Ok, I'll go, I'll go first. So I am a maniac about my vacation. Like I take it every year, every day, all the days. Like I'm never somebody that just like have vacation left over at the end of the year. Like, so I'm crazy about it and I really mean it, I want to go on vacation, I unplug, I don't want to bring my PC, I don't want to bring anything. I just want to go completely unplug and anybody that's worked on my team will know that you can't really find her when she's on vacation. And so that, that is one thing that I try to model because I think it's so important to like make it ok to take a break, let's make it ok. And as a leader, I feel like it is my job to not only talk about it but also show it. And so I'm a maniac about vacation and I expect my team to be maniacs about their vacation too.

That's awesome. You are a maniac

about your vacation. You maniac about 5 p.m. Like even as a friend, don't call her after 5 p.m. and will not get the answer. So, um, you know, I think for me, I'm a pretty, I'm a pretty open book. Um, you know, what you see is what you get. And so I, I think I've really um embrace that, you know, a any team I'm on, they know my kids, they know that I have two crazy dogs. They also know that I have chickens in the pandemic because that chicken would not stop squawking on calls. And I had to kind of introduce Henry to everybody. Um, and so I think because of that and because I'm very open about, I have an award ceremony, I'm going to field Day. I am taking my kids to the doctor. My child needs me now. Um, or, you know, my husband, my husband has an appointment, he needs me to, to go with him. It makes things easier for teams if you're the boss, that sort of is the martyr. That's like, oh, I just work all weekend or I'll just, you know, I, I should be at my kids event. It doesn't set a good example for people and then people feel less comfortable, sort of coming to you and, and saying, and doing those things.

So I really just try to, you know, I don't apologize when, you know, the zoom meeting crash happens and my son really wants to, you know, say hello to everybody because he really likes being on camera. Um, and then I think on the flip side of it, my kids keep me in balance, Kate seen, seen my post it, I have this really funny little post it from my son that just says get off, get off, get off, get off. So when he's frustrated and doesn't feel like I'm paying enough attention, I guess they like, you know, check the reality check. And so, um, you know, so I think that makes it easy, especially as you move into management positions, letting your team know that it's ok for me.

So it's ok for you. It's ok for all of us. That's our time. We can, it doesn't matter if somebody's sick, they don't have to tell me why they're sick. If somebody's going on vacation, they don't tell me where they're going. If they need a mental health day and say I can't be here today. Yeah. You owe me an explanation. It's your time. Yeah,

I totally agree. I'm, I'm, uh I'm very loud and proud about this, right? Like you can see up here some of my linkedin posts through the years and I do that. It's less about showcasing how wonderful I think my kids are because I spam my friends with that on Facebook and Instagram and, and more just hoping it influences our next generation, right? Because when I, when I started my career and when I started having kids, I don't think it was, you know, ever talked about as much and to your point, Jen about being a martyr, you would have people brag about like, oh, I had to work all weekend or oh, I had to miss the award ceremony and, and now I look back and I'm like, I'm never going to be that person.

I'm going to set the example. Um and another tip I have here that I, I wish I had had a really, I've had wonderful, amazing mentors. Um But that has happened to me more recently, like really early in my career, especially when I first became a mom. I wish I had a really strong female mentor that was, you know, 20 years in advance that was, or a male mentor, but someone that appreciated raising small Children, um because I think part of it is taking a deep breath, right? Like you, you can be so overwhelmed in the moment. And, you know, even my kids were in elementary school, there were all these volunteer opportunities to come in and I had to miss a lot of them and my kids really wanted me to be there and there was an opportunity to be a room mom and I opened it up and I'm like no way who has time for this.

If there's no way I can do this. And, and then I took a deep breath and I thought about it and I thought if I'm the room mom, I can be in control of when the parties are and I can be in control of what the agenda is and I can work that according to my schedule. Um and I do love being in control, but it had less to do with that. It was more to do with, you know, that deep breath and don't assume why it don't, don't go right to why it can't happen or don't assume it can never happen. Think about, you know, what's possible if you just think about, you know, that kind of, is this gonna matter a few years down the road. Um So hopefully, hopefully that helps in some way and gives you guys especially as uh if you are in the process of raising Children, no matter what the age, hopefully some of those tips help. So if we move just to the next, next slide past our adorable families here, we, we wanted, we wanted to just take a minute to, you know, highlight some of these, what we were saying are helpful comments which is sarcastic, they weren't helpful comments that we've we've gotten in the past.

Um So w why don't, why don't you start with, with a couple that you've had here and then Jen, you can chime in too. Oh

yeah. Um All right. So, so one of my helpful comments here is um this job requires a lot of travel. Can you really handle that and your family commitments? Um Like I literally had someone say that to me. And so, um and you know, and I of course of all the things run into your mind when you hear that kind of thing. 1st, 1st thing came in. Well, if I was a dude, would you ask me this question? Um If I, you know, was single, would you ask me this question? Like all these things? Right? And so the way I responded to that was like, I need you to know that I can do this job. I don't need you to worry about my family commitments. I've got that, but I need you to know that I can do both. So don't worry about my family commitments. I've got it and like being that direct with that person in that moment, I think um was really great for me and for them to number one realize like what a ridiculous question that was. And then second, it was great for me to stand up for myself and say like this is not something you need to worry about. Like that is not your role to worry about that.

And so I think as a working mom, that's the something that probably is, is in people's minds, especially as you advance your career, like, oh, can you really do this? You're raising small kids? Can you handle this? What about your kids? And it's like, don't worry about that.

I got it. And, and I think that's the really the message here is like you have to some in, in, in some cases stand up for yourself and remind people that although you may be thinking about it, it's not for you to worry about.

Yeah, I think for me and II, I have to say I've heard it less and less so I'm either getting softer in my old age or, you know, times are changing. Um, but definitely early in my career, I heard it a lot which was, you know, you're too direct and I think, you know, my response to that is. No, I'm being clear, I'm, I'm just being clear right in stating kind of whether that's in a project or in a, in a, you know, situation where I'm, I'm sort of setting my boundaries and kind of where, where I want things to go and, you know, that again, I think it's, it's a lot of it is, you know, if you're a woman, then you get that right.

You're too direct, you're aggressive. You're, no, I'm just being clear on deliverables for a project, you know, and I think at the time when I heard it quite a bit, I was actually running, I was product, product marketing and I was running a product launch. And, well, my job was to be direct. My job was to set the deadlines. My job was to call people out because your deliverable is tied to your deliverable. And I've got a beautiful camp chart that will show you why this is a problem, you know. And so, um, and then I've also gotten the flip side of it, which is, you know, oh, you smile so much. You're always giggling or, you know, nobody takes you seriously and you know what? I can't change that. I'm, I'm, I kind of crack up at everything. Um, I laugh a lot. It gets me through the, the tough moments and I also think that it's worked in my favor as a leader because it puts people at ease. Um, and you know, the more they're at ease the, the, the easier some of these things get right to tell me I need time off. I'm not doing well. I'm, you know, they know that I'm pretty approachable. I'm here, I'm here to help. So it's, it's worked in my favor. I haven't really, I haven't really taken them to heart.

Yeah. And I think that's part of it. Right is you have to respond, like letting some of the comments go. There have been times where I've let it go just because I'm like, I don't want to deal with that right now, but you have to respond because it's, it's doing us a disservice, but also it's doing everyone a disservice, all the people that we want to mentor and support in the next generation of leaders, right?

And um the two examples, I

just keep asking the same question again.

Exactly. And I had the example I had here is I had to leave early to take my kids to a dentist appointment. And my peer commented, oh, my wife does, you're going to take the dentist appointment? Oh, my wife does that. And I was like, yeah, I'm a wife and a mom and I left it at that because I was like, if that doesn't get the point across right there is someone has, I have Children and they need to have their teeth fixed, especially because they eat so much sugar. Um And then, and then you know, this, actually, I put this here. I have heard this many times. This was not a one time thing. Have to get the female on stage. So we get diversity, have to have a female in the booth, have to have a female on the team. And while I think we have made progress, I think we have a ways to go in terms of overall diversity and looking at it as better teams because of it. And not because we're checking the box to make sure there's a female in the booth and not just males.

Um, so anyway, I don't know if either of you have any other experiences, like,

oh, yeah. Well, you know, Kate, this is like my lived life, right. So, I mean, I think, I think, um, I think I agree with you. I think it's, it's definitely one we want to move away from. Oh, we're just checking a box to, to fulfill a quota if you will. But more about, wow, when we open the aperture and look at all types of people with different backgrounds, different everything that, wow, the team is better, right. So, when we all know diverse and inclusive teams, they just perform better. And so I think if we get to that sort of mindset as corporate leaders, I think, you know, that's where you have to go to, that's the North Star.

And I think, you know, when we were at IBM, I mean, they did such a nice job of this. And, you know, I was on the Hispanic Council when Goy was, you know, part of the Black Resource groups, you know, like we, we actually had that and it's, it is, it's the shared experiences, right? Is that, you know, Kate Wui and I all come from very different backgrounds. We have a lot of commonalities and we have a lot of things that we talk about that my experience is very different and Wang Goi's experience is very different. And so you multiply that times, you know, larger teams and you get, you know, all those diverse voices, it does make a huge difference, it

really does. So the next, the next part, we wanted to kind of end on a high note of, of where we have had great advice from allies, both in terms of supporting balance and flexibility, which we we wanted to talk about here, but just in general. Um and, and I'll, I'll start with my story when I first became an executive at IBM. I was interviewing for my first exec role. It was a director role and I was so nervous for the interview and it was moving divisions. It was moving from a, a division that I had been in for years to the security division and I knew nothing about security. Absolutely nothing. And I si was interviewing with the general manager at the time, which is, you know, an intimidating thing to do. And I kept talking about how I didn't know security and I didn't know security and, and I know this, but I, I just want to be real clear. I don't know security. And he stopped me dead in, dead in my tracks and s, and made a joke and he said, Kate, everyone here thinks they know security and a lot of them don't, you probably know more than some of the people here that think they know security. And he said, I want you to talk to me about marketing. What can you bring? Right? And that lesson, I'm sure he doesn't even know this. But that lesson has stuck with me in every single interview.

And I tell people it all the time because I think we focus as women on what we don't bring to the table instead of what we do bring to the table. And, you know, I spent seven years in the security division and ended up being the CMO I learned security, right? It was, I had a focus on what I could bring to the team. And so, um it's just helpful when you sit back and you have those moments and you reflect on it and, and hopefully some of that that will resonate with some of you and you'll go get that next job and focus on what you can do and not what you can't.

Yeah. Um I, I love that Kate. I think we have this sort of self-deprecating manner sometimes that is not, um, is doing us any favors. So I agree with you there. Um, one of the helpful comments I've got actually was from you and I, I reminded you about this a couple of weeks ago. But, um, I tell, I tell this story all the time where I, there was an executive role that came open and, and I was like, um, I don't know if I'm gonna apply for this job. I'm seven months pregnant. There's no way I'm gonna be able to get this job. And, and it's because I had you and others that were like, really great, just mentor sponsors, friends, colleagues, ash my tribe, whatever the name is. But um I said that to you and you were like, first of all, who cares that you're seven months pregnant? Why w why would you not interview for the job? Go get the job, you'll go on maternity leave, you'll come back and you'll crush it. Like that was literally what you said to me. And I was just like, oh, like, I mean, II, I was like, oh, I guess you're right and, and this, and you also said, and by the way, it's illegal to discriminate against you because you're black.

So you did

was kicked. But exactly. And so I think it just having, that's why it's so important to have the people around you that you can like bounce all these ideas off of and they will, like, set you straight and you set me straight in that moment. And so, which is why, you know, you're part of my tribe to this day. Right? Because of that. So I think, I think that having such a great person that you can just talk to and allies that you can reach out to and have these conversations with it is so great because it'll just change your mindset. Right. Absolutely.

Yeah. And I think for me, I think one of the things and, you know, we've got some comments here around, you know, are you ready for that next job? You know, imposter syndrome? You know, because you just can't help it. Right. It just goes through your head no matter. And I, I found it like, no matter what role I'm in, there's always that, oh, I don't know. I don't know. But if I'm scared it's usually the right job. Um, if it, if it's something I know I can do in my sleep, I tend to steer away from it because I'm like, oh, no, that's, that's probably not the right thing for me. But the way that I have found sort of my way through those moments is data. I found that data is my superpower. I don't have to know it all. But if I know one or two stats in my back pocket, if I know I'm going into a conversation where somebody's not wanting to, you know, do paid media or somebody doesn't believe in brand or somebody doesn't, whatever that situation is, if I have a few data points memorized and in my back pocket so that when something gets thrown at me, it neutralizes.

Well, no, this is what the data says. This is what the industry report says. This is what our data says. It just kind of level sets everything and it starts to give you the confidence you need as you're sort of developing in the role because we're always learning. If we're not learning, then we're not really probably great at our jobs because it changes, you know, things change

so true. I mean, Jenny Rometty said the best guys, I mean, girls in comfort do not coexist. Like I take that phrase with me everywhere. And I thought it was such a great, um, sort of reminder that she used to tell us all the time when she was CEO of IBM and it sticks with me to this day and that, and that's exactly right, Jen. If I'm comfortable and it's all great, then I'm like, uh, no time to move on.

Absolutely. We are, we have a few more minutes here. We're gonna end with recommendations. Each of us pull together, kind of what our three recommendations are knowing. They won't work for everyone. But hopefully someone can pull some sort of nugget to help them um, through the course of their journey. So Jen why don't we start with you?

Yes. So this first one is a stolen one, but all, all good ideas are stolen from some. Um So the there was a, a conference that I was at uh early in my career and the cmo of uh ebay, I think it was actually gave this advice and I loved it, which was appoint your own personal board of directors. And you know, and I think you kind of all heard us reference like we all lean on each other. There's people in your network, there's people who don't, you know, in my case, don't work in marketing that I rely on. You know, there are people who are, I've got people from all walks of life and they're really holding me accountable. They are people that I can talk through things with. There are people that I can just run things by who have no stake other than to just give me a good piece of advice. And that is it so extremely helpful to have that network of people that you can count on for you. Um So that one, it was an, it was an early lesson and an important one. I think the other one for me is um and this is the one that I've had to like really struggle with the most is throwing away that idealized version.

So I had this uh a perfect mom looks like this a, you know, perfect executive or CMO or manager or whatever role that I'm in, looks like this, you're never gonna hit those expectations because I can dream up something better all the time. But if I'm just me, I'm gonna bring something different than somebody else and that's ok and it's not gonna hit all 10 points. That's ok because I'm gonna bring 11 and, you know, it's gonna be different. And so I've, I've kind of, you know, really had to grow into this one because I did have these and I think a lot of that's background, right? And we had talked about diversity. I grew up really poor in a, in a small community. I, I had these visions of what an executive was and what working at IBM would be like and what, you know, and I had to kind of just make them all go away so that I could just be me. And then the third one and I think this is an important one for the boundaries piece is interview the company as much as they're interviewing you. I think we often kind of ask a couple questions at the end of an interview. That's not enough if they say that they stand for diversity. What are they doing about it? Who, who are the people interviewing you? What do they look like?

You can tell pretty easy, you know, go on glass door, get the reviews if they say that they believe in work life balance and they believe in, you know, sustainability and, you know, all of those other things, you know, one of the things that I actually, um, loved, I had it early in my career and then I did, I didn't have it for a while.

Was at DMB. Right now. We have volunteer hours so I can actually volunteer during work hours and take my, they're living, they're living their sort of values. And so finding that match is, is really important.

It's great advice Jen really is. I love that last one too. It's so true. My, mine, I've, I've sort of talked about throughout but, you know, I think in the abstract, we put finding balance 50% of the time, right? You're not gonna have it every day. And I don't think, I think that's like a dream world. If you think you're gonna have balance every day, I think you gotta make sure you have it over time, right? If I'm away for a work trip for a week for my Children, I don't balance that week. Right. I'm focused on work and I'm not home. But then when I'm home, I'm very present with my kids. It's, it's just a small example. But, you know, one of my, one of my former bosses, she actually did balance in like year, time frame, time frames, like where she would work really, really hard for two years. And then if she felt like her kids needed her that year, she would take some time off or move roles or do something to bring in more balance. So I think there's a bunch of ways you can look at doing it. And I think you just got to Jen's point earlier. Like, don't have this idealized version, right? Don't worry about it being perfect, just worry about it working for you and the family over time.

I already talked about the communication piece so I won't belabor that the only thing I would say is you gotta stick to it. If you're communicating, these are my boundaries and you're not living like you by your boundaries, just like Wang Gui refuses to not take every vacation day. Your, your team's gonna see that and then it's like then, then it's, you know, you're not relevant to them, right? You're not genuine to them. Um And then I am a huge believer. I'm paying it forward to the next generation. I, I really look back and think if I had, you know, my husband and I say now we wish we had had a third child. Well, that time has passed for us, had I had someone in the moment that could have talked to me about not being so overwhelmed in that moment and taking a deep breath, you know, I, we would have really, really considered that, but I just couldn't get out of my moment at that time.

And so I'm a big believer and that's an example of having another child, but there's tons of those examples, right? Different, different. And I think it's on all of us to help build that next generation. So that's always look to see who you can mentor.

Yeah. Um And this quickly my three are, you know, first off, you know, build your tribe, we talked about this, Jen calls her or board of directors, I call it my tribe. So find the people around you that can support you along the way to help answer questions for you to give you great advice when you're all in your head about things, find your tribe. Second, I would say just to your 0.2 K, I'm always reaching back. I have tons of mental and mentees and, and people that I coach along the way because I had so much great support coming up myself. And so I feel like it's, it's sort of my, my duty to do that. And then the last one, I would say as a leader delegate and trust your team, you, this will also help you find the balance as well in that you're not trying to do everything but that you're actually delegating, empowering your teams and you're trusting them along the way too.

That's it.

That's wonderful. Great ones. Thank you all. We hope we are at time. We hope that you enjoyed this session today. If you have questions, please throw them in the chat, we will definitely get back to you through the conference app or find we're all out there on linkedin and we're happy to spend uh any, any time with you. So, thank you so much for attending today. We really appreciate it. We hope you found something you can take

away. Thanks everybody.

Thanks everyone.