I am very, very excited to be here and this is just an amazing time, right to be having this type of conversation.So, so many times, as many of us know those in tech think that de I is someone else's responsibility, the Chief Diversity Officer recruiting hr or even the CEO. Well, today is about looking in the mirror. I'm Virginia with Jenny Hillman, a recruiter at work day and ad E I advocate. I'm so fired out to be here today with my best friend and mentor Josie Haines to talk about the crucial topic of what engineering leaders can do to go beyond the check box. When it comes to the A I. Before diving into the topic, I wanted to take a moment to introduce Josie Josie Haines is an executive and engineering leadership coach focused on building high performing teams through empathy and compassion. Her mission is to retain women in tech by empowering engineering leaders to create inclusive and diverse teams that thrive and build products that fulfill the needs of our complex world. She has spent over 20 years in the tech industry as a software engineering leader focused on large scale consumer technology, including roles at Apple, Zynga and American Express.

Most recently, the VP of software engineering, your tile, where she led all aspects of software development, including mobile back end data Q A and web. As well as driving the DE I efforts across the company. She grew the town engineering team by 50% in five months during COVID.

While still keeping the inclusive culture, she helped create. She's also an avid public speaker, having given over 80 talks panels and podcast interviews over the last three years. Hey, Josie, shall we get started? Let's start. And why should I would like to know? First and foremost, why should engineer leaders care about? DE I?

Thanks Virginia. I'm really excited to be having this chat with you today because you know, this is a topic that's near and dear to my heart. You know, I almost became part of the statistic where 56% of women leave tech after 10 to 20 years. However, I realized that if I walked away, I'd be walking away from having the ability to impact the future. So I decided in 2018 to come back to tech under my roles. And I wanted to work somewhere where de I wasn't just lip service and we really did care about building an inclusive culture. And so you asked me, why, why should we care as engineering leaders? Well, first, we're really the ones that can have one of the biggest impacts on this. We're setting pay, we're setting, we're doing promotions, we're deciding who to hire, who gets to work on what, what feedback we give people what culture uh we're creating in our teens. And the other thing is, I feel like a lot of what we've been solving in the tech industry these days is convenient problems. Not everybody. I, I don't want people to get upset saying I'm, we're always solving convenience problems, but a large portion of the tech industry solves which are not what I call real world problems, right?

Like how who's solving climate change and like a racial inequity and gun control for crying out loud, right? Like we could leverage technology to help us solve some of these issues. And if we use all this brain power we have in Silicon Valley today focused on that, like what a better world we would have. But the only way to actually solve some of these real world issues is by having more diverse and inclusive teams because we need to think of the solutions, right? You know, um but this is also a numbers game, right? I we are running businesses and so I don't want to just give you something that's like, oh, this is a feel good or nice to have, right? If you actually focus on de I, this is going to lead to better profits. Hey, we're also pretty likely to maybe be ending up in a recession. I know people don't like hearing that word. But guess what if you have a diverse and inclusive team, you're more likely to, to thrive and be more profitable in a recession and you're actually also more likely to produce better products that actually fulfill the needs of our real world.

And so these are all reasons why we as engineering leaders should really care about these.

I am so glad you said that. Um most could say that we're already there with the recession, but this is a butterfly effect that cannot be talked about. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Those are some great insights though. I mean, from what I just added to everything that you said, I mean, it really is eye opening and it's why we need to care about DE I as leaders in tech. I would like you to tell me now what steps can leaders take to make de I part of their leadership strategy?

Uh uh And that is an awesome question because really, you know, I think people sometimes say engineering leadership or leadership development and de I are two separate buckets, but I honestly think they're very intertwined and should be thought of holistically. And so I talk about three, a three pillar framework for all leaders to think about when thinking about how to build a more inclusive and diverse team. And this is all based on research that the Ker Center did in 2017 as part of their tech lever study. And so the first pillar is the one that you might traditionally think of under DE I and it's those comprehensive de I practices, things like inclusive hiring, reducing, you know, reducing bias and interview processes, you know, part potentially partnering with communities where you can find more diverse talent.

Um So that's the first pillar. Unfortunately, a lot of companies start and stop at that first pillar. And that's ultimately why we have the revolving door we do today in the tech industry when it comes to diverse talent. Because the unfortunate statistic is 37% of people who leave the tech industry do so because they were unfairly treated. And so that's why pillars two and three are actually the ones that move the needle. And so pillar two is creating an inclusive culture, which is something each and every leader has an ability to do at their company. And so this includes things like creating an employee, re creating employee resource groups and sponsoring and supporting those uh creating a culture where psychological safety and making mistakes and being able to be vulnerable is recognized and rewarded instead of, you know, being looked down upon, you know, it's OK to make mistakes.

And as leaders, you have to show that vulnerability first. And this last one is I call it, don't pay the asshole tax. And so a lot of people laugh when I say this, but I really truly feel we're paying a tax in the tech industry. And what do I mean by that? We, we keep the brilliant jerks around. We, we keep those amazing engineers who have no interest and actually being a good team player and a collaborator because we say, oh no, if we lose them, everything's gonna fall apart. But we don't realize that what is that saying to everybody else on the team that they're less important. And so, and I think this is a big one in tech is don't pay that asshole tax. And so then I want to talk about Pillar three though because this one is really where it's tied back to leadership and Pillar three is having effective and fair management practices and principles. How many of us in tech I was in this statistic are promoted to management with zero training uh in management. And so many of us because the, the, you know, you, you get your strongest performing I CS, you're like, oh they'd be a great leader and manager, let's make them a manager.

And then all of a sudden, you're like, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing and you know what I most likely impacted inclusion in some way, shape or form negatively by just not knowing what is and how to effectively and fairly manage. And so I think this one is one of the most crucial skills that we really need to be empowering our engineering leaders with

I wholeheartedly agree and, you know, we have worked together on these pillars before. Um I have to say, I love the way you split it into three because it's buckets, they're similar to one another, but they're also intertwined and people don't understand that again. The A hole tax, it's so powerful, especially for women. I think that's like when people pay that, we feel like we can't speak or we can, we cannot be our authentic self and that applies to women and also women of color or any minorities out there, you know, with the imposter syndrome. So it's just something that if we want to be true allies and we want to talk about allyship as a whole, we need to stop it. And that is part of walking the walk when it comes to allyship, right? I mean, that's the first thing you should do as an ally. So thank you so much for being that really interesting and powerful point right there. Um Josie, you know, I'd love to ask you this, but I'm going to say it out loud. What advice would you give to an engineering leader who's just starting to think about incorporating de I and their leadership practices?

I think this is a great question because I feel sometimes peekapoo can feel overwhelmed, right? I'm talking about three pillars, there's a lot of content under each of those pillars and if you try to tackle it all, you wouldn't get anything. And So I tell people really start small and focused, figure out here you have the biggest ability to impact. So take some time to do some analysis upfront. Maybe do an inclusion survey if you're about to do your, you know, your, your biannual surveys, add some inclusion and diversity questions there, you know, pull your team um look at your diversity metrics. Let's see, you know, are you seeing some drop off in different areas and recruiting?

And is that the biggest area you wanna focus on? Are you having, do you have good diversity? But maybe your retention metrics aren't great, right. So a lot of times where to start is by doing a little bit of analysis, a little bit of measuring and really seeing like where may we have the biggest impact. So I always say measure, measure, measure, it's, it's like if you don't measure, you're not going to really be able to move the needle and then realize, you know, and then pick something and start on that and focus on it and see what happens and measure it and then add to that, right?

Don't try to do everything at once. And you know, you were mentioned the word allyship and I think it is so crucial to realize that you are truly being an ally here and that is a learning journey that includes being willing to make mistakes. I think this is something that I've seen leaders struggle with. I've seen some leader, you know, I've spoken to some leaders and they're like, I don't feel comfortable talking about de I, because I don't feel like I'm an expert at it and I might mess up and, you know what I say to those leaders is, guess what? Nobody is perfect at this. Right. I make mistakes all the time and have to think about. Oh, did I say that the right way? You know, I keep learning new things and sometimes I go back and change things that I've talked about before because I've learned new research doesn't actually align with that, right? And so I think it's really truly realizing that allyship is a learning journey and it's one you wanna encourage everybody to be on and the best way to get people on board that journey is by being vulnerable and sharing that you make those mistakes.

And you are willing to say, hey, I made a mistake. This is my learning from it. Let's figure out how to make things better. And ultimately, I think learning how to leverage empathy as the foundation for your leadership skills is one of the most crucial things any leader can really do when starting to think about how to create a more inclusive environment.

I agree. I think that you touched on so many things that are so impactful. I mean, you've told me before and I think that was a pivotal key point in my career and all those that you mentor, right, as a mentor that you are is that you cannot focus on everything at once because then you're not really putting all of you in, you know, in all of your goals.

So you got to divide and conquer. That's the best strategy. You always go back to basics, divide and conquer. Um And definitely this survey and listening to everyone and what their needs are as well that gives you really good beginning measures as well as constantly, you know, tackling the impact that this is causing what you're producing as content is what moves the ele not only with organization, if you have a pushback, you can be able to say, hey, like we need to continue this program because here is the, you know, positive impact in a number at the end of the day, you know, tech is a business, right?

And, and, and if we provide any information that can align with profitability and align with positive impact, I mean, that is just a, you know, a no brainer to follow. Um and you know, when it comes to ship, I think we speak the same language here. Um And all of us in the audience I could say is that it is a learning journey, you know, but we've seen so much of that exodus of like a lot of de I leaders taking sabbaticals, taking a break after what happened during the pandemic or at the beginning, right? And a lot of people who just feel discouraged. Um I think it's normal, I think it's normal to feel like you feel overwhelmed. It's ok not to be ok. It's ok to take a space back, to come back to realize that maybe mistakes you're making, it's ok to have self accountability with others. It's all about community, right? I mean, that's what ship is about. So I really appreciate you saying that. And my favorite empathy as a foundation here, I mean, we all know that this is the reason why you made that phenomenal new move in your life. Congratulations and would love you to talk a little bit about that, please. Um Just because I think you will be, the audience would be missing a lot if you don't talk about it. But your ethos, right? Empathy is the foundation. It's one of the crucial skills leaders can leverage to create a more inclusive culture, you always preach on that.

And I've seen the tremendous change that your words cause as an engineering leader, how do you think about applying empathy in your day to day to create that big impact that you talk about?

Yes. Um And I'll definitely talk a little bit about my journey um And how empathy can kind of led to that. Um But first, I like starting with the definition of empathy and how to think about empathy from a leadership perspective. And this comes from Bernie Brown's definition of empathy and she's a big empathy researcher for those of you who don't know her. And so it first starts with perspective taking, it's realizing that empathy is literally about putting yourself in somebody else's shoes and trying to see things from that perspective. And hey, this isn't just great for interacting with your coworkers. This is great for thinking about how you're gonna build a product too and understanding the perspectives of all of the people who might use it. The second one is staying out of judgment, you know, and this is where our unconscious biases come into play. You know, so many times our brain just makes a quick judgment about somebody and we need to learn how to slow down our thinking to stay out of that and simply listen without jumping to those conclusions. Next is really recognizing the emotion, somebody else is feeling and, you know, really understanding that and communicating that back to them and identifying it and saying, hey, did I understand this correctly?

And so a lot of times though, when people talk about empathy, they stop there and then they don't go down to like the really tactical level, which I love talking about the fact you can apply empathy to code reviews on a daily basis, right? And so how do you do that? Well, and first of all engineers do code reviews every single day and while I'm talking about code reviews, this can apply to document reviews and everything else. So first you got the person writing the code right? At this point, they've written this beautiful piece of code, they've gotten it up there, they want reviewers to review it and they're ready to move on to the next thing, but they have to have empathy for the people who are reviewing the code. They didn't go on the same journey as the person wrote the code. So where is the links to the Pr Ds? The architecture documents? Are there comments on things that might not be obvious why they're done that way, right? And this isn't just great for the people who are reviewing the code. This is actually great for any future employees who might join as well as a way to review why things were done the way they are. And now the code reviewer, we obviously want them to have empathy for the person who wrote the code because at the end of the day, we're all here to hopefully build an amazing product, right? So let's not try to fight, have internal arguments over something that's really crucial.

And so really having and one of the best things I say is never start with, why did you or why didn't you? Because so often that puts the other person on the defensive. And so that's what I like talking about empathy being something that you can really apply in a much more tactical basis. And so honestly, you know, going back to my story, this is why I decided to go and become an engineering leadership coach instead of just staying a tile because it's amazing to create one co uh an inclusive cul culture, but I can't do it one company a time, it's never gonna move the needle.

And so, you know, my my big vision is really around retaining women in tech. And so I really want to do that by up leveling engineering leaders to help them build a high performing teams through empathy and compassion.

I think that honestly, that is the biggest takeaway. I would say that we all should take today is to be able to exercise these basics to again kind of have a little butterfly to create this world or we can create retention but also create comfort, create, you know, empathy, create community, create an environment, I mean just sustainable enough for the needs of the different people, right?

I feel like it needs, it needs to be about our different backgrounds, our diversity, how we complement one another, right? And how we all thrive together when that.