Not sure if she's on, but uh I think we can go ahead and get started. Thanks everyone for joining. Um We will have a really good session today. We have amazing women panelists to share their perspectives.Um I've known Emma from Carnegie Mellon where we went to the same grad school and Shilpa and I work for the same company Roche who will probably be joining soon. Uh I met her at a different conference. She had a lot of very inspirational stories to share from her career, transition from a professional dancer to an engineering manager. So I thought she would be a really good addition to this panel. Uh We'll wait for her to join, but uh till then, I'll just go ahead and uh give a brief introduction for Shilpa. And Emma. Um Shilpa is a general manager at a doordash Canada. Prior to joining doordash, she worked as a senior Director of Transformation at C I BC where she was responsible for strategy and ops management for technology innovation and infrastructure. Emma is the co founder and CEO of off site, a marketplace for discovering and booking high quality team events before starting her company. She worked as an engineering manager at a few tech companies in the Bay Area most recently Lift.

Um and we have Rosh, so I'll just go ahead and introduce her as well. Rosh is an engineering manager at Twitter. Prior to joining Twitter, she worked as an em at Uber uh supporting technical privacy deletion sub team where she was charged with fulfilling account deletion across the Uber environment. Thank you all of you for joining. Um And to just briefly introduce myself, I'm n I'm part of the privacy team at doordash. Um My previous background has been with um consulting in the cybersecurity and forensic space and I also had my own little start up before joining doordash. Um Any comments before we start into the questions, uh feel free to let us know I'll be monitoring the chat. So if there are comments or questions, I will be happy to take those on and um just to get the conversation kick started. Um Since our three panelists have all had career changes uh and have had career pivots in the past, I would like to understand if um what was the motivation for the career change and maybe we can start with you, Shilpa.

Sure. Um So the motivation for career change for me um was, you know, in one word, curiosity. So I'll go a little bit further than the introduction you provided kindly. Um I, I trained as an architect, an undergrad. Uh and then I went on to do financial advisory, consulting, investment banking, and then strategy and knobs and then retail and then now leading a tech company uh at doordash. Um And so throughout those pivots, I think the one common thread has been curiosity. So when I was uh studying to be an architect, I think in year four or something, I wanted to do an extra job. Um So I went and sought out an internship which was at a real estate consulting company. So I was part of the drafting team for one project. And I was curious to know like, what else is happening here? What else is everybody else doing? Um And what is this big decision about Irrs and DC FS? And what did these abbreviations mean? And how can I learn more? And then I went and spoke to people and I understood that that's where a lot of my curiosity was being piqued and uh a lot of my interests seem to align. And so I decided that after gaining the um enough about the, the opportunities uh post that I went and did an MB A specializing in finance um came out of there and then I did real estate private equity placement for a few years, great experience, great learning.

But then I was like, but the hub is in North America, that's where all of this money is coming from to India. So how do I get to that? Ecosystem and what do I need to go uh do to get there? Um And that's when I started to explore AC BV, which is a Chartered Business Evaluator designation. Um I moved here, joined Deloitte in the Valuations team, um grew a little bit there and, you know, then I was like, well, real estate is not the only thing I can do valuation for. How do I generalize this to other industries? Um did that and then went into investment banking at VMO as a generalist industry, agnostic um M and a specialist. Um And then I started to do a lot of Midmark M and a work. And then I realized, well, mid market is a lot of succession and there's not enough sophistication and so they need a lot of strategy and ops hand holding and get them sale ready. Um So did a, did a bunch of sales ops um you know, before um we got, got into the MN A process and that's why I was like, well, this is cool. I wanna do more strategy and ops work now.

And so I went, so that's how, you know, one after the other, I think it's, it's curiosity and then seeking out what I need to do and what I need to learn and who I need to speak to, to, to get to the next one.

Yeah.

Thanks, Shilpa Josh. Do you want to take uh the same question and um provide your perspective and feel free to go through uh more detail into the background. I was very brief.

Sure.

Yeah. Um So I was a performing artist. I was a professional modern dancer. Um So like if you've ever maybe seen The Nutcracker think Nutcracker, but like a little more weird. That was what I did. Um I got a B fa in dance in college. I also got a liberal arts degree as well. Um And I was no dance is uh physically quite taxing. And I was coming to the end of the period of my life where I could kind of handle that. Some people, you know, can dance into their thirties, their forties, their fifties, you see, you know, people professionally dancing even into their seventies. That wasn't what was gonna happen for me. My body was kind of falling apart. Um And I also had gotten some really interesting advice uh in high school from a drama teacher. He had said if you can do anything but be in the performing arts, probably do anything else because it's very hard. Um And so my body was falling apart and I was also like starting to feel interested in things other than dance. Like dance had been like my single minded like obsession and focus for 10 years leaving out of school. Um But I was getting really curious, actually, I had a day job as a project manager. I was getting very curious about how people do things together, like when people do things together, like how do you do a good job of that?

Um And as that interest and that inspiration like became more relevant and sort of rose to the surface. Um I started thinking about other things I could do. Um And other sort of professions that would be as occupying to me as like a whole person. Um as dance had been for the 1st 10 years of my professional life. Um And so at the time in my social circle, co like coding boot camps were not like, not, not like everybody is doing that, but there were a few people who were doing them, it was kind of up. Um And my thought was, well, it's actually like kind of low risk, high reward. Like I spend my entire life savings on going to a boot camp and then like, I get a job, I hate it. I work long enough to like, make that money back and then I try something else or I spend my entire life savings on going to boot camp. I get a job and I love it and I decide to stay or I don't get a job, but I find another job and I build up my life savings again. Um So it just felt like it was, it was kind of low risk.

I was like, let's see what happens and I knew I liked coding. Um I had done some coding in high school and some coding in college. It's like this is so fun. Um So I, I just kind of walked into the darkness. I was like, let's see what happens um and ended up really liking being in tech and being in software and particularly I work in the field of privacy. So like a major privacy nerd and have been doing that ever since.

Thank you for sharing that Emma.

Yeah. Um I wish I have a D's degree but I don't. Um so I um I grew up in China, I studied electrical engineering. So um I remember college it was uh literally building antennas for uh race cars and it was very, you know, hands on electrical engineering and I thought that was, you know, what I wanted to do and my parents both have background in electrical engineering too. Um Then going to Carnegie Mellon, I went to same as no need. I go to the uh Information Networking Institute which was kind of like a hybrid between CS and double E. Um And after graduating naturally, uh you know, got a job in uh Silicon Valley and started working as a software engineer. Uh So all that was I would say, kind of kind of expected, but like I would say, um I don't know if the other folks on the panel had the same experience, but I remember like just a few months into working as a software engineer. Uh literally like fresh meal bread right into like the job I felt like, man, is this how my life is gonna be for the rest of my life? Like I, I was so lost.

I didn't know like, OK, should I like really work on my technical skills and or should I like, look at how people become managers. And I was, I have so much anxiety of like where like which path to pick. And I was only a few months out of college, like I was way like over planning. Um And I remember talking to a mentor at a time and um he was like, you're over planning your future. And um he said, you know, just do a great job of like whatever you're doing, do a good job and keep learning and the path will kind of form naturally. So I was like, at that moment, I thought, OK, I will just stop over planning my future, take it easy and just like, be a better engineer to start. Um And then a couple of years later, I, I was working at Lyft and uh I worked there for about five years, transition to engineer manager with a lot of support from my colleagues. And um being, you know, a manager, I would say is very different from being IC. Um So I learned a lot and then throughout, you know, managing teams and whatnot, I, I just really experience the pain point of having to uh plan all these team building events.

Um And that was the reason why I started uh a company around uh late 2019 as a marketplace where people can easily discover um all the other phone activities, other companies and teams are doing and then be easily book them. Um And then COVID happened three months into starting my own company. And I thought, man, people say starting a company is hard and I picked like the worst time and all my friends are like, oh my God, I'm so happy at work at like a big company. I have like a well paid job during this period. I'm like, um so I'm not paying myself anything. I know investor at that point and or like also needed to pivot from in person to virtual events. Um So that was like a lot of learning and we pivoted, we ended up pivoting very quickly. Um Got a lot of traction revenue raised an amazing rounds uh Last year. Um And throughout, I would say this journey of starting a company. Um Even one like switching from engineer to engineer manager was a lot of um problem solving. I would say I know she'll probably mention curiosity. It's kind of like go hand in hand. I would say, like, be curious and solve the problem at hand. So to give you an example, um I would say, you know, being a manager, you quickly very, very quickly realize everyone wants to be managed very differently.

Um So you'll learn how to manage them, how to help them grow, how to mentor people better, how to find them, the mentorship they need. Um And throughout, you know, starting uh a company of my own building a company, um I literally learned, you know, beyond engineering, like, how do you do state tax registration? So you can hire someone in a state outside of California or um how do you do sales marketing, legal compliance? Just like I think there's just always gonna be challenges thrown at you whatever you're pivoting to. But the, you know, curiosity and you feel like so problem is uh gonna help you so very much. Yeah,

thank you. I, I hear three themes here. It's like curiosity planning and problem solving to even think about a career change and, and plan in that direction. I think our second question is somewhat related where if someone has um financial responsibilities and, and they have a current job uh or they can't take time off to go learn something uh like a go to grad school or boot camp. Uh How would someone like that uh plan, like create a transition plan? Uh How would they acquire the skills that are needed for a new role? And if you have any um insights to share uh maybe at this time, I can start with ros

Yeah, absolutely. Um So I tend to now talk to a lot of folks who are interested in maybe pivoting into privacy. Um And one thing that I always recommend is um look for the privacy adjacent opportunities in the job you have. Let me tell you, there's a ton of work to do in privacy. I haven't met a company that doesn't have privacy work to do. Um I haven't met companies. They're not people but you get where I'm going that um So if you can find something and kind of gain that hands on experience within your current role or kind of expanding your current role, um That's a really great way to do it. And of course, again, in the field of privacy, it's um it's fairly new, you know, there's some credentials that are available but not a ton. So I think that sort of hands on experience becomes even more valuable when you don't have a, like a, a job market that has an influx of people with like a fancy degree that's specific to the field. Um The other thing that I'll mention here and it's kind of on the same theme. Um You know, my first year in tech, I, my work life balance was a joke. Um I just knew that I had to do all my learning on the job.

Um And I spent way more time in front of my computer than I prefer to do now. Um And for me, that was an important part of the process because I really like boot camps are very limited in what they can teach. Um, and I had so much to learn and so I just, I just did it, I just paid it upfront and, and made it happen and, um, I think if you're kind of planning a career transition and you're not able to really take a break and do, go get your MB A or your CS major or whatever. Um, it may be worthwhile to set your expectations that there'll be some extra time at your desk to take that, that learning on the job, which is something I would never tell anybody to do outside of that period of time. I'm like very protective of forklift balance. OK. That's it.

Thank you for sharing that. I know. I, I know maybe like, like asking people to Time Box this like eight months or six months, like, you know, do this for, for your career and that's how you create your plan around it. Um Emma, do you want to add something to that?

Yeah, sure. Um I'll just be brief. I think. Um one thing I would mention is like, um you just gotta have to do it, make it happen, give it a shot like if you want to get into coding uh and you know, don't have the bandwidth or resource or money to actually sign up for boot camp or go through like real like, you know, grad school or anything like that, like there's so many tutorials out there that's free.

Like watch one, like just do it for like one Saturday. Your sacrifice, one s Saturday. Try it out. Try to follow tutorial, right called maybe in the end. Like you don't really like it. Like it's like you don't know until you try it. So I would just say take that first step, give it a shot, like try it. Thank you.

Um So just go ahead and at least give it a try to know if you like this or not. That's a good, like fail fast techniques. Uh Shilpa, anything you would want to add to this

question? Yeah. Uh a couple of things. So in, in my career that, you know, I've had like three very distinct, I, I call it a portfolio of careers, then three very distinct things. Um So the first one was an MB A was the catalyst of it. So I, I guess that that's, that's sort of, you know, not for everybody. And um in terms of the responsibilities, like you mentioned, my other two pivots have happened while on the job and I had a family and I had young kids and so there was time constraints, financial responsibilities and all of the above the, the first one was, you know, simply I just had to start from the very bottom.

So when I decided that I needed to do retail strategy and ops and that's what I wanted to get into, um, you know, I said, I don't care about the title. I don't care if I'm an IC or managing people. I don't, you know, I will take a pay cut. Um, but I need to learn this thing on the job without not having a job. Um, and, and so that's, that was one, way that worked for me at a certain life stage in my life. The, the other, um, point was, you know, I just like, like the others have said, uh it's just continuing to learn on the job and be willing to make the extra effort and not expecting that it will all land the way you imagined it uh in the first go around and to be honest with you, like, you know, I'm uh I am the general manager for a tech company, but I don't code.

Um And so there's, you know, it's important to think about like, if that, if I want to be in a tech job versus a tech company versus the tech industry, there's, there are very different things that you can do. Um Like I, I'm still learning how to use uh SQL, right? Like I, I don't know everything that those around me know and do a great job at, but there are value adds that I bring to the table based on my experience that, that are unique to me. And so so I think it's important to balance the, oh my God I have to put in all of this time and all of this effort and I have to manage the expectations and because I don't know anything, it's great to have that learning and growth mindset. But at the same time, you have to know what you bring to the table and not discount that. So I think when you balance that, you know, confidence with the curiosity, um it, it makes the, the learning a bit easier and faster.

Thank you. And if I have to sum up this discussion, um the key takeaways are learn on the job. And if you can't like, learn on in the exact same role, try to find uh opportunities adjacent to what you would like to do. Um Or the third one is to use free resources. If you have financial constraints or responsibilities, there's a ton of um free resources and youtube tutorials out there, but where you can start, oh, thank you for sharing all that. Um I think we have another question on um on networking. So chances are that you won't have a strong network in your new field uh as you did in your previous fields, how do you solicit help and mentorship? Um or in a new career pivot and uh maybe Emma, we'll, we'll start with you um entrepreneurship coming from a tech, like a coding background. How did you find uh uh a network and, and uh help? Um Yeah, like as an entrepreneur that's like super key to getting funding.

Yeah. Um I think, you know, um where should I start? Um mentorship for, you know, entrepreneurship is definitely very important and I like the very early influence um I had from, you know, mentors being like people who have um started companies before they have had their um companies, whether it's successful or not just talking through like um the initial idea and then point me to the right direction to say, ok, you need to do more, um you know, talk, talk to potential customers more before jumping into this idea.

Is this really, you know, a company or, you know, just a fun project on the side? Um So getting those guidance definitely helps. And then throughout the journey, I think, um you know, we have our um advisors um who and our investors who are all have a lot of expertise in building marketplaces, which is why offset is uh about. So like just having someone who's have a ton of experience in what I'm trying to do really makes a difference. And I think building connections um takes time. Um I was even more important than building connections is to just like has done like when you build a company has done, make like it sounds really cliche, but it's totally true. Like make something like people will love. So focus on building a product, focus on talking to customers making improvements more than, you know, trying to make connections, make, you know, a ton of, you know, friends. But like at the end of the day, like you gotta make sure your company is successful because the product is solid. Um So, yeah, thank you.

Um Shilpa. Would you like to add something? You, you've had more care than the rest of the pile is

here? Yeah. And, and I didn't have a product to call my own and that, that hit off uh uh out of the park. But so here's what I'd say is I think we're all work in progress, right? Like I think when you think about mentorship and sponsorship and people who've made it, like we're, we're all work in progress. So the one thing that I will, uh you know, in terms of networking and cold calling or trying to build these relationships, like Emma said, it takes time. It's not a one and done like these are relationships for someone to speak on your behalf at a different room to make the introduction and invest their own human capital in you. Um It takes time and it takes effort and it needs something. But why I say everyone's work in progress and how that's relevant. Is that what, what do you bring to the table for the network that you're trying to build? What do you bring to the table for someone who you're seeking mentorship from? Um And so I think there's that important thing to consider is uh you know, for me, it all, it all comes down to um the curiosity of, you know, showing someone why you love this so much and why you want to do this so much.

Uh And what do you, what are you doing in terms of effort, in terms of learning, in terms of asking the right questions, in terms of helping them build their knowledge. And so you're almost like jamming on it together. Um So I think that's, that's one. And then the other thing is, you know, I always say to people that I mentor is you need to have a board of directors, board of directors for yourself. Um A set of very diverse people, people who will show you the way, who will tell you to stop, who will you back, who will make the connections for you who bring something different to this table of yours. Um And so it's very important to be thoughtful about that. So, you know, I, I came into Canada as a new immigrant looking for an M and a job in 2008, which is the perfect storm. Um And so my strategy was I'm going to get dressed and get on the train and like sit at a Starbucks at eight in the morning on Bay Street because no one has a job, but they're all having the coffees and they're all like willing to talk to me if I have something good to say Uh and so, you know, it took several months before, you know, I started to get into rooms instead of the coffee shops and I started to get into interview tables.

Um But, but I think that's a very important part of like, uh what do you bring to the table? What is your level of hustle and how uh well thought out is your strategy for networking? Because, you know, at the end of the day, you need to know who you're bringing to your board of directors, directors.

Thank you. Thank you, Shilpa. I've heard a lot of people talk about the personal board of directors and, and um thank you for reiterating how it works for you and how it's important for career pivots. And well, um I think I'll pass to Roche because I remember reaching out to her the first time, like after I heard her talk on linkedin and I said that, you know, I'm interested in pivoting to uh privacy engineering and uh let me know if you have a few minutes and she agreed.

So it was literally cold calling for that word.

I uh I like to pay it forward. I feel like I've received a lot of help. So when people reach out and then I get a lot out of that too, I'm glad you reached out here. I am. Now I get to talk on the panel with you. Um So a couple of things, one is, it's been helpful for me, I would say, like, for like baseline level of comfort perspective to reach out in the companies that I've worked at to, er, GS. So if there's like a women in whatever company, if there's a LGBT Q, all the alphabet group, I'm gonna, you know, just not even like, be an organizer but just be a Lurker and, uh, feel that, feel that, that community, um, because it was a very large cultural change for me to move to tech.

Um And the other way that I think I found good help and support is when I interact with somebody who's awesome. Um I hit them up. I remember I was doing some Android coding and I was new to Android coding. I had no idea what idea what I was doing. And there was this one person who just gave the most awesome thoughtful helpful code reviews. And so I hit him up and I was like, hey, can we meet there for a couple of weeks? Um So I can ask you a bunch of questions. And the second part of this is every time we met, I came with a list of questions, I was not, they're going to waste their time. I knew exactly what I wanted to talk about. I needed to like bring the knowledge out of his brain and put it into mine. Um And I've, I've had multiple, I would say like successful relationships at work based on that. Like, you're awesome. I need to learn from you. Let's, let's meet weekly, biweekly monthly, quarterly.

It doesn't even matter. It's just about having that committee of people who really, you know, seem like they know something I don't. Um, and one last thing that I do all the time, I, maybe this is just like a out growing of my personality. But even if I do meet somebody awesome who, maybe I don't need to learn from at that time, let's say they're doing I OS coding instead of Android, whatever. I'll just like, write them a message on slack. Like you're awesome. Like, thank you so much for making that comment or like if I'm in a interview, debrief and the recruiter is just like leading that thing and doing an amazing job facilitating, I'll say like, wow, that was great and like just kind of having those casual touch points um helps build like a, I would say like a light touch network.

Like probably we're talking about like concentric circles. So there's like the crew of people who you just know that you need to be interacting with and then like a lighter network. So if I happen to have a question about the area of the stack or the product that somebody is working on, I've already interacted with them before. Um It's not something that I think about.

Thanks, Josh, very insightful comments on, on like creating a concentric circle or like planning out what networking looks like. Um, I see a question in the Q and A section. Uh, I'm guessing it's for our panel because it asks about transitioning from a different country, uh, for a career pivot or, um, or like moving to a different country. Um, so maybe Shilpa and Emma, because your stories both have an aspect of traveling to a different country for, for your career, if you can give some pro tips on how that transition was and any, um, any red flags or something to watch out for.

I,

I can maybe start, look, it's not easy. I'll tell you that. It's so, I, I moved, uh, uh, for marriage and so, so it was, you know, not, um, well, there was a pivotal time personally and professionally and so there was that, but I think even just isolating professional, um, it's not easy because you feel like an outsider. You, you don't know what you don't know. You, you don't know the people. You don't know the, the etiquette. Like you don't know the culture. You don't know how to say hello to people. You don't know if you're supposed to smile to people on the street or no. Um. Right. It's, it's very different, um, initially but I think you have to come at it with a, it's not gonna happen overnight. That's one, it's, it's going to take effort and that effort might sometimes be stuff that you have to unlearn Right. You might think you, you have to, um, be in a very, you know what I call low, you go high absorption mode, um, for, for the first little while, because you might be on an accelerated path wherever you are coming from, you might have your life sorted out and then suddenly it's changed.

Um, so I think it, you have to be willing to keep an open mind, give it time and believe that you're enough like that is the most important thing. Uh You know, I, I, I've coached people who um as part of like try and, and other organizations where it is specific to new immigrants. And a big part of that is just like pep talk and if people are feeling so deflated because they thought this is going to be the new life and everything is going to be fancy and it's not. Um So I think that's one part, the second part is, um now, I mean, I moved here 15 years ago and I'm so happy that now there's so many organizations, there's panels, there's communities and networks where you can go and reach out um to seek these conversations and to seek help and introductions and networks and tools and so many other things.

So don't be shy, right? Like there's so many people who've been through the exact feeling and the exact situation that you're being uh in right now. Um So seek out those conversations and not every conversation is to, hey, can you get me a job? Some conversations are, what did, what did you do? Right. And what did you do wrong? What can I learn from you? And who do I talk to? So, um I think to what Roche said earlier, it's very important to know exactly what information you're looking for, what questions you're going to go ask for and why and then, you know, sit back, assimilate, marinate and believe that it's, it's happening. It's all, it's all the universe is working towards it and you're enough. Um And I, I think it's, it's easier said than done because I've been through it. It's super frustrating and it's super, it takes a very long time when you're in it. But trust me, in hindsight, you've got this.

Thank you. Uh So believe in yourself and, and try to like find people because you're not alone. Emma anything you would like to add to this question.

Yeah, so sorry, I feel like I kind of missed the question because I can't find it in a, do you mind? Like I

see it because I'm the moderator. But the question is who have transitioned from a different country? Um For career pivots. What are some of the pro tips?

Oh Got it. OK. Um hmm I Yeah. So I guess like how Sheila started the conversation, I think. Definitely not easy. Um The main thing I would say is to um believe in yourself and know that there's a lot of people out there like you. Um One thing I want to share is that one I like way before I started off outside. Like I just felt like there is no way. Like I would be like a CEO of my own company one day. Like it, it didn't even cross my mind. Like I was happy being, you know, an engineer, like I was just very happy staying in my lane. And um you know, I, at the beginning, I was also very self conscious of my English. I still speak English, but now I've learned to love my accent. Uh just things like that. And I think, you know, even when I started the company, when I started teaching to investors, I, I had a lot, I had to practice a lot because I thought man, like I feel like I need to, you know, I don't talk like your average CEO who's maybe a Caucasian male um you know, was fluent English and II, I had a lot of soft doubt I would say.

But um that throughout the journey, you realize like that does not matter one bit. Um And you learn, learn that really quickly. Um And also one more thing to add is like, um when I started off site, all my, you know, advisors and mentors are um male. Like I literally just didn't, I, I think someone else was asking earlier, like, where do you find such network, like I would say, like at the beginning, I thought, man, like, I really don't know any other female founders out there. I felt so alone and, but then throughout, you know, building a company and just people like getting inbound or you actively reaching out or like your investors, connecting you with other people. Like I now have my little network of uh you know, female founders and it's super helpful, like, we sometimes get together. I'm like, oh my God, this week, I'm dealing with this thing and someone else will say like, oh, I'm dealing with the exact same issue and just even knowing that is so nice. Yeah.

Thank you so much for sharing that and especially about uh not being a native English speaker is something uh I've met a lot of people but um it's just like being proud of your identity.

Yeah. Yeah. To

cool. Um You know, we have only two minutes more to go. Um So I'll just quickly pass around the Panelist for like one call to action. If there was like one advice or like one thing we would want everyone who is an aspiring uh career change person who's looking for a transition. Like what is the one thing that they should do after as a take away from this panel? Um I'll just pop on it around maybe like starting with Chil

Sure, I was just looking at. So there's 43 participants on this panel, if there's one immediate call to action is like add all 43 of us on your linkedin. Um hit whoever up in, in terms of like what you want to learn about who you're curious about. Um You know, this may connect you to hundreds and hundreds of more people and lead you to the next thing.

Thank

you and Roche.

Yeah. Um Both Shilpa and Emma talked about kind of approaching a career change with confidence. Um Something that helped me a lot was just this idea of fake it until you make it. Now, my partner would disagree. She would be like, you're not faking it, you're the real deal. But for me, it was like a way to think about it. I was like, I don't feel like I've got this but I'm gonna like, walk in there like I've got this. Um and that has been, that has opened doors and kind of made it possible for me to take opportunities that I think if I had been acting like I felt I wouldn't have actually been able to do so. It's maybe a bit of a controversial phrase, but I'll, I'll say it helps me quite a bit. Take it until you make it.

Thank you. And then Emma,

yeah, I would say, um if there is one thing for everyone on the panel is to take one action immediately after this meeting, whether that's to send out linkedin invitations or questions to people or um blog off this Saturday afternoon to like watch a tutorial or whatever it is, take one action, whatever that is that like the reason you're in this panel right now is probably you're either thinking about or in the early stage of your career pivots.

So just take that one action.

Thank you. Thank you all three of you for joining. Uh This has been really beneficial, especially for me. Um And I wish I had this guidance when I was thinking about a career change because I, I had no plan and I was completely clueless on how to begin. So, thank you for sharing. I, I believe this recording is going to be available for a limited time for the other uh members who have participated and um and it's going to be free for everyone. So, um if anybody's question has not been answered here, feel free to reach out to the panelists on linkedin. Thank you everyone. Thank you so

much for having me. Thank you. Thanks Santa Bye.