OK. OK. Welcome everybody. I see some people already joining in. Uh and since it's a past seven, we're gonna start. Um I wanna welcome you to the series of fireside chats by the Women Tech Network.We are inviting phenomenal and outstanding women to inspire and empower you on your career journeys. Uh I am the Selena Posto. Some of you may know me as the marketing and content manager for the Women Tech Network. I am replacing our CEO and founder Anna Radowski today as she is tackling the organization of the Women Tech Global Awards coming this December 3rd. And today we have a very special guest, Maya Schreiner. She is the CEO and founder of Sharing trip, which is a start up that brings together women and companies in tech in a job sharing model. Before becoming an entrepreneur, Maya spent 20 years in the tech industry taking on roles from software development through software testing to agile leadership and product development and management. Maya is also an international speaker on various topics around agile leadership, collaboration Q A and testing.

So for everyone who is tuning in, feel free to ask your questions in the chat or comments and whenever you hear something that resonates with you, please do let us know. Maya welcome. And thank you so much for taking the time today. Share your insights.

Thank you so much, Ve Seina for having me and for the invitation. I'm really, really delighted to be here with all of you.

We're also very happy to have you and if you're ready, we can start with some questions. Yes, I am great. Um So the first question I have today uh is uh actually regarding to the beginnings of your career, uh you were born and raised in Serbia where you completed your studies in information systems and technologies. Then you found a job at a start up in Lausanne and moved to Switzerland where you've been since. Will you share with us the difference in the experiences of women in tech between the two countries?

Yes, of course, gladly. So, uh as you said, yes, I originally come from Serbia where I grew up. And um for some of you that know a bit of Balkan and also Eastern European uh culture, you might know that actually there even at that time, um there was much more of um equality between men and women uh in terms of uh working conditions. And actually, it's part of the history also and also part of the uh I would say wealthy or not so wealthy style, right? Comparing to, for example, Switzerland or some Western European countries. So I am raised up on the let's say, values and, and this kind of mindset that everything is possible first. Uh when you try it, of course, and on the other side that uh women are completely equal actually. And um so also for these studies, I actually, I already as a small child was always super interested in computers and also in foreign languages. So when I had to choose what I should study, um it wasn't a surprise to choose it actually. And information systems because that is for me, a great merge between my love for foreign languages and also having an opportunity later to explore the world. But also again, to combine with my main passion for computers. And um at the university, we were almost 5050 male and women.

So it wasn't really no issue, right? And uh I mean, I did notice towards the end and I don't want to be biased now when, when I say that, but it was true that most of us females, really, most of us finished on time while the guys would uh spend time coding in the night and doing, doing some side projects and we really kind of geeks, right?

Uh Again, I don't want to be biased, but it, I I did notice a bit of these differences already in Serbia, right? But still again, we were uh a lot of ladies, a lot of young women, all right. And also in my first job, uh, um, that I actually started while completing my diploma thesis. Uh, that was, um, a, actually we were like, we only, or only had one guy who was, who already graduated at that point or was, um, almost graduated, right? Like us and like, I think it was five girls, right? So it was like a kind of a women club at work. And, um, I was actually a database developer at that time for around 10 months before I moved to Switzerland. And um Switzerland was, that's a very long story. Why, why I came to Switzerland. Uh but basically, it was uh for me personally, like kind of um everything that I was missing in Serbia, right? The economical and political stability and uh kind of having everything organized.

I don't know how many people uh in the audience know something about Switzerland, but it's like I, I always say it's like Heidi land like um if you know Heidi, you know, everything is like perfect mountains, cheese, chocolate, everything works, right? And it is really why I stayed, right? Because it's, it's really um great country on the other side. Um I would say even today, right? I I'm kind of puzzled when I hear people. Um oh, you are a woman and you are in it and you studied it and you have this experience and it's kind of still even after 20 years, some of us uh OK, things are changing and improving. But you can imagine 20 years ago when I came, it was in 2000, it was like, really always almost repeatedly being an only woman on your team. And um so yeah, that is more or less the answer to your question. Um It, it is a huge cultural difference, right? And it is not only in it, it is in general. Um it is uh kind of um still, unfortunately a bit of traditional society. Uh but uh there is some research on that but I mean, statistics as well, but it is really based on a lot of different culture in, in, in like eastern and western Europe and coming uh coming background, right?

Yeah, coming from the Balkans, I can relate with you those points.

And then, yeah, now that you mentioned that, I mean, most of the women I did get to know in the last 20 years, right? They uh come from, let's say 80% of them come from all these different countries. A lot of them come from Eastern Europe, of course from India China, even United States or Germany in some rare cases or France, right? Like neighboring countries to Switzerland. But there are still so less uh women um studying technology engineering, they call it um uh I think in in English language they call STEM, right? Like for science, technology engineering and math. And uh yeah, maybe we tackle this uh fact a bit later during the call.

Yes, I, I would love to do that. But before we get there, I actually wanted to ask you about your time at Swisscom because um while you were there, your experience as a woman in tech motivated you to start the Swisscom women in tech and lead community. Uh Can you, would you tell us more about it and what were the challenges you faced and the impact that you achieved with that initiative?

Yes. Um Very gladly. Um So actually, I joined Swisscom in 2014 after already spending uh enough of um years before also working for some other companies in Switzerland. And um so what br uh brought me to Swisscom was first, um I wish to work for a very large company and wish to have much more of opportunities for my career advancement as well. But basically, um Cisco is like the leading telecom industry provider, right? And, and also a huge it company as well and the variety and diversity of the products uh we offer was also what was so interesting for me. And um so still um that, I mean, there were women, of course, I wasn't the only woman in the company, but um again, this, this um pattern kept repeating, right? So I was, I was again one of the very few women in this large project team, right? And it was kind of again, a bit of pattern that um in, in terms of role roles and in terms of um a role um how they were kind of split, right? And um at some point um since I'm also very social person, right? And I like connecting people, I like exchanging ideas and I like exchanging experiences. I was um I was still thinking um also in terms of the whole glass um glass ceiling uh that is also a fact, right?

For many women in many countries and also in the tech industry, um I was again, very interested and really um passionate uh to create this project, like a kind of side project and really voluntarily. Uh So I invited few of those other women I knew at the company, right? I dropped them an email and ask them, what do you think um you create this, this whole community? I, I want to really initiate that. I'm, I'm ready to be a leader like kind of first role model for this community. Um Would you be willing to come to this first kickoff meeting? Right. And then the ball just started rolling, right? Because you can imagine how it works with networks, those other women or even um uh men knew. I mean, uh I need to add, I didn't invite only women. Uh That is what I can also explain later. But um uh so the others invited the others, right? So it, it really um created uh a small uh start like maybe we had 20 or 30 people in this very first kickoff workshop where we uh discuss the whole vision, the the goals, right? This is by the day, always very important when you want to start something you always uh should start with why and you should be clear about why you are doing it, right? And not just OK. Now let's do a coffee together.

I mean, having coffee is great, but uh you have to be a bit clear about more and um back to your question with challenges. I would say I didn't really have challenges, right? I mean, um I was very blessed to have people who were sharing the same vision and who also volunteered to help me organize one or the other event. But I do always underline that I spent a lot of my free time on that, right? I spent a lot of time inviting others motivating them to come uh selling one or the other talk from one or the other line manager or even our hr boss who came uh wants to to give his talk. So uh it was a lot of effort, right? And I'm super proud on that. So, one of the main achievements is that at the end, we have like 200 pe people or mostly women on the subscriber list, right? And um OK, now, in the times of COVID, uh uh somebody who took over uh this year, this whole community leadership is doing it online, of course, right? But you can imagine uh up to the end of last year, it was all live and we had monthly meetings, we had quarterly um a lot of presentations and events. And uh at the end, we were included uh some around the middle of the pro project.

They were including on the, on the whole company's hr uh diversity road map. So it was like one of the main successes, right? So that we were that we were recognized by the whole company. And I also need to, to add this for the sake of clarity that the whole hr diversity team from Swisscom also did um sponsor us with, you know, what you need to do for organizing one or the other event to get some kind of, they call it Opera in Switzerland, a kind of uh snacks or, or, you know, beverages, right?

So that was, that was covered by them. And uh they did uh actually from the beginning, I understand that um uh the idea and that there's still the division and um just to sum it up, uh one of the also other learnings is that those kind of initiatives, right? Those kind of communities is always best to create uh bottom up right from your employees. Because if they are pushed from a company, um it is nice of course, to push one or the other program program. But if the employees don't understand and are not willing to spend their uh paid or even free time on something independent, what it is, then it's always kind of uh ta um not the full success, right? But if you have employees that are really passionate about that, uh then it's really a success,

sounds wonderful and congratulations on the success of that initiative and that it's still going on. Uh Even though it's online, uh we all have to do that as we can see. Um So, so something that I would say, it feels that you need it in that situation, in making that happen was great, which is something that you've also said is your best quality. Uh But you also have said that the best advice that you have gotten is to be diplomatic instead of pushing. And what I'm wondering is how you manage to marry these two concepts and find the perfect intersection between them as courage can often seem pushing a woman due to common biases.

Yes. Uh It can. But I always say it is uh it is completely possible to merge both uh for me, courage and greed is really, I mean, as the words say, right, you have to be courageous and um otherwise you will end up uh always asking yourself what if, what if I did this decision or not? And just, you know, you really have to take things into your hands and when you have this opportunity and uh you also have to recognize the opportunities, of course, right. So, um again, I always say that it definitely part of my Serbian heritage uh that we as a, as a nation are. Um somebody would say sometimes a bit, you know, too courageous, right? And, and maybe not too diploma diplomatic as Swiss people. But again, I'm, I'm blessed by, by this life consequences. So to say that I can marry both and not being pushy and being diplomatic is um again, right? Uh You, you need courage to ask people, you need courage to do something. You need courage to create a project like community or to start your own start up. But you have to know how to handle different personalities and different decision makers, right? You have to understand their uh mindset.

You have to understand the culture and again, a culture in Switzerland is very different than in Serbia, right? You can't just call somebody and say let's do this, right? You have to sell them idea, this is how it works. And um if you understand that they are not in, you have to accept that you shouldn't be like pushing them to something that uh they are not willing to say. And again, being diplomatic is again, you have to recognize what you should say to whom and when, right, who is willing to listen, who is um able to understand and in what context and not just always say your opinion and always think, you know the best and you know, just really listen to others.

This is also by the way I learned in all these years uh active listening and this is also what I learned. Um and I believe a lot of other uh in the audience and um by working with others, right? Uh I'm a huge fan of teamwork and of listening um to others. So I always stress uh that it is very, very important right to listen and to um reflect, you know, all this agile or lean development um um process um like inspect and adapt and reflect and review and, and not push and just, you know, I hope that answers your question.

Oh, no, I think it does. Uh I also like, I resonate with you. I mean, it resonates with me, but I feel something that you said is also quite important that um it, it's something that we all need to hear. But until we work out with people and experience it ourselves, it's gonna be a very hard lesson to learn. Otherwise, from just hearing about it, you have to learn to read and listen to people, which is quite difficult. But I think it's a beautiful insight. So thank you for sharing

that with us. And you know, actually, I believe that um one of the main um assets of a great leader is actually courage, right? You have to be courageous on, on all these different aspects and all those different levels, right? Because if you are not, then you are not a real leader, at least if you ask me. So

actually, that makes a great transition for what I wanted to ask you about next because it's uh again related to courage and also with some challenges that you've uh faced in your life, um you were a tech lead at the start up that brought you to Switzerland, uh which unfortunately ran out of uh funding after six months of you being there because it was influenced by the.com bubble burst.

So Daniel took a job as a software engineer after having been a tech lead. And I think in the current pandemic climate, uh your experience can probably resonate with many women. What is your advice to navigate the stressful time between jobs and also potentially having to take a step back on the career ladder for, for a little bit?

Yes. Uh So, um I need to uh to explain first about this uh very first start up that I joined. Uh You can imagine when you are 24 right? And just coming from Serbia to Switzerland and you have no kind of mentor or coach. I mean, at that time, honestly, I didn't know that there is something like mentor or coach. Uh So I asked a few people that I knew and that I could trust. What do they think? Shall I go to this start up in Lausanne, which is by the way? Awesome city. I love it. Or go in the suburbs of Bern, like kind of a village and work for, maybe not so exciting uh job, right. That were at that point, my two opportunities in Switzerland. So everybody said go to Lausanne, of course. Right. And then I came there and they told me you are going to be a team lead uh of this small team. So I have again to underline. It is a difference when you work in a small start up that consists of like 10 people, right? Uh Then being a tech slash team lead, it's not like you are a tech lead at Amazon, right? Or at Netflix. So it was a very nice role. It was a cool role. So because I was um responsible for uh software design and software architecture, but I have also to add to this story that it was uh in this C++ I don't know if anybody knows what C++ is as a programming language.

Um So I actually made a transition from being a database developer uh where I was actually trained for 10 months in Belgrade. You can imagine I went through all this training in oracle and database development BL SQL. And then I actually switched to C++ that I knew from university, but I wasn't like super skilled in writing code in C++ or like and there I was at this uh tech slash team lady, but it was like a team of three people, right? You have to understand that. And um it is true that the company ran out of funding. Uh And that because of the.com burst, uh that it was super hard to find the next job. And when I came, I came only for a very temporary work permit. That is also interesting to understand. Um Right, I just came for six months and then my working permit was extended. But then um me and some other people got fired because of the funding right in the seventh month. So I still kind of had a working permit. And that goes again back to courage grit not giving up right. After this first six months, you can imagine I had an awesome salary in Switzerland comparing to the one in Serbia. And then some people were telling me, why don't you just come back to Serbia, right? You earned some money. And then I said, so what I want to stay here, then there was this great opportunity at, at a much larger and how do you say already uh known company? Right.

So it wasn't, it's always a matter of opportunities and, and um your choice and and what is good for your phase of life I say, right. So for me, it wasn't a step back. On the contrary, it was actually a new step and actually step further because I was able to switch from C++ to Java that I love until this day. If you ask me what is the best programming language? I will always tell you that it is Java. And uh so, and I had an awesome team. I had the great boss, I had a great contact to customers and I had a nice project in banking industry. So I always say again, when I reflect on this whole career and the whole roles, it is really not important to the role because um and I assume that everybody understands this until, until until now and especially in 2020. Uh because in every role, you can be a leader, you can walk the talk, right? And you can be an expert and specialist and you just need to be sure what is the best role for you at that moment and for your future, of course, right? So, uh it was, it was both, it was super great jobs with a lot of differences, of course. But um this is what I, by the way, love this whole variety, right?

I'm not the type of person who will just go to work in a one company for 20 years. I have to admit that publicly now. Um And I be I click, you know, I click the best with people who share the similar mindset who like to explore who like to change, who like to change roles, careers. This is also why later changed from, but that's maybe part of the next

questions. Uh Well, sure. Uh Thank you for that. Maybe we can uh do uh move to the next question, which I think is also very interesting in terms of the current uh climate uh with the pandemic going on. Um You uh about when you started with Swisscom, you already had two young Children and as a result, you arranged actually for yourself a part time position at 80%. So how did you manage to arrange that? And also would you tell us more about the concept of job sharing models that has become like a big focus for you right now?

Uh Yes. So, um Exactly. Um actually, it's, it's also important to add that I actually never had uh a career break while having my small kids only with the first child. Uh That was before cio, right? Uh I was able to take um unpaid leave. So I actually was uh one year um with my first daughter at home and it was uh awesome time, by the way. So, um actually in Switzerland, it is uh quite common that um that people do work part time and uh something between 50 or 60 up to 80 or even 90% workload. And I always remember how I um I i it's kind of different in understanding and vering of part time, right? Because if you say 80% for me, it's almost like full time, right? It's only this one day that is missing. So, um actually before Swisscom, I was working in another company in the 80 to s uh sorry, 60 to 70 workload. And my husband, by the way, was also able to reduce to 80% at he at the company he works. So um that is the type of model that a lot of families um apply. So to say in Switzerland, especially uh to be able to have enough time to spend with their Children. Right? And, but again, I always say it's a matter of choice, right?

Um And I always also say that um it's, it's much better to continue your career. Uh even working part time in 5060 80% workload than to make a real cut because this is where the problem starts, especially in western Europe, it is very hard to get back to work when you make this um this break. And uh for Swisscom, um actually, it's one of the uh pioneers in flexible workforce and in um giving all these different opportunities uh of flexibility. And it's not only for parents, it's like also for people who, who study uh still, right? Uh or doing their mbas or doing more sports uh or for whatever reason, uh don't want or can't work 100%. Um So 80% was kind of, it was normal to ask for that. So it wasn't a real problem and that was like six years ago. And nowadays, I can say that I'm always happy to see that there are more and more companies um where they, they say in Switzerland, I mean, I, I know mostly for Switzerland, of course, they say uh 80% is, is quite ok also for the leadership positions, by the way. So, um and then even if the company wants to have you only working full time, it's always a matter of negotiation, right? Um you can sign 100% contract, but you have to negotiate for a bit more flexibility.

And now with COVID, I'm also super happy to see and, and I think all of us or most of us that companies are finally understanding uh that you can trust somebody uh to do to finish the work, right? And to do it in a great quality and to do it on time, even if this person works from home, and even if this person maybe makes a break between 5 to 9 to be with the family or to do jogging or whatever, it's, it's normal, right? And it's much better to have relaxed and um work life balanced employees than to have them stressed because yeah, then you know what can happen?

That that's the one thing I'm hoping uh that comes out of the situation is that employers actually become more open to that kind of arrangements um as they had to be now, but hopefully in the future. Uh so that brings me to the job sharing models. Can you explain a little bit more about that concept? I think it's really, really uh interesting to hear about it.

Yes, of course, gladly. So, actually, as the name says, right? Uh job sharing is about sharing one job or sharing one role. And um it is when actually two people work very closely together in a small of, we call it here tandem or kind of couple, right? Or, or like I call it, you can call it small team, but they work closely together. They both work uh less than full time and then uh they actually fill uh requirements together and actually they exceed the requirements for this one full time job because normally, even if you have two software engineers that know Java like sincere, they tick a bit differently, right?

They might write their code a bit differently or see the problem differently. And as we all know, actually two heads together, they think more than one better than one, right? And it is also proven by a lot of research that when people work closely together in job sharing or in general, right? Uh they achieve much better results and then when you shape your teams together so that they cover not only common set of skills for any role, not, not even in it, by the way, job sharing is um very much known, for example, for doctors, by the way, which is also very interesting.

Um So they cover not only the common set of skills, but they cover complementary set of skills, right? And they have uh maybe some different set of soft skills, right? Then actually, they are much stronger together and create much larger outcome and um actually create more innovative products.

And when the companies have more innovation, then they have also more revenue. So it's kind of a nice circle. And um I came to this whole term or the whole, how should I say model, right, the whole model while working at Liscom. Uh Again, I have to give credit to Swisscom as a very flexible company and really a pioneer in exploring all these different models. And so I heard about it from hr or even from the press, I, I'm not quite sure I heard it from different sites and I also understood by myself already, right? Because um I was in employed in a, let's say, um a very nice position on a nice career step, but with 80%. And then it is also true that when you work 80% it's always this one day that is missing because you have responsibility and you have enough of tasks for a full time job, right? And uh imagine you have to go on a holiday and then you work a lot right to, to give it somebody who is kind of unofficial deputy. And uh and then you come and you go to holiday, you relax, right?

And then you come back and then uh steal a pile of work is waiting for you. Right. And, and you kind of think, ok, what happened? Now, now everything starts from the beginning and it is much better to have somebody who is really your close deputy. That is also one of the great advantages with sharing, uh, with the job sharing is that normally not both persons would get sick right at the same time. I mean, ok, now with COVID, it is a bit tricky but normally they, they don't and um, or for example, they, they can adjust their holidays to go, uh not at the same time in the holiday. So you always have this continuous flow of work. You have knowledge exchange and um exactly exactly this knowledge exchange and knowing what the other person is doing and uh what are the shared goals? Like you share responsibility and you share the, the goals around your job. So yeah,

sounds awesome to have somebody to fall back on, especially with the vacation part is really, I, I could definitely, I think anybody can relate to that part.

And, and then there are also some, a few other models, right? I don't know. Um, how about uh the companies, uh you know, but uh for example, a lot of companies uh are introducing this kind of senior and junior model, uh person working together as a part of coaching and a part of, again, knowledge sharing, right? Imagine you are like, I don't know, 40 plus 50 plus even maybe 60. And, um, before you go to the pension, you might want to, uh, I mean, I hope you want to pass on all this huge knowledge you have about this, whatever you are doing. Right. And it's always much better to create this kind of, I call it backup solution for companies. Right. And the juniors or younger generation, as you know, they are much more tin, right? They know all these tools, they are fast learners. And then this great match of uh huge experience in business acumen can be matched to somebody who is really super fit in all these technologies, right? And, and create a really win win situation.

Oh, that's great. Um We didn't know about that one either but uh have just had the pleasure of had that in past experience at work. Um So I wanna ask you a little bit about your uh your current business uh and uh the passion you have for it because you did start it as a as a passion project on the side uh while you work were at your corporate job and then you moved to a start up to work uh in actually a double role as a product owner and product manager, but did leave during the COVID-19 lockdown.

Uh because you did realize that you wanted to focus first on your family and on your own business uh because you were so passionate about it and in light of that, um I am curious why do you think that companies should still support the employees passion project?

Uh Yes. Very good question. And it is, it is true. Uh what you said um that um after spending a long time with Swisscom, I uh wanted to do something completely different and it is also true that I as already mentioned. I was actually OK, I need to mention that as well. Uh The whole idea about job sharing, I've heard while I was at Cisco like many years ago and explored a lot and it was always kind of OK, I, I would love to have a, a real job sharing partner and then to apply together to, let's say one or two steps uh uh higher position as a leader of this or that role.

And uh that didn't work, I have to admit uh it was, it was uh not so easy to find this uh correct match at that point. But what I really achieved and I'm also very proud about it and I think my inofficial doctoring partner as well is that it was a kind of this senior junior uh combination, right? I had to coach um somebody uh and actually many young, very, very young apprentices in software testing. And uh so that goes back to the personal match, right? I mean, personalities match, you have to have somebody uh that is really clicking with, right? And it is very important and um that you can trust and reverse. So it was, um, we did it actually for more than two. I think even more, almost 2.5 years that, um I knew that I kind of went to my boss and told him you, look, you know, I work only 80% but I have so many holiday days, et cetera, et cetera. Um I suggest this colleague who already knows enough about software testing is ready to be my deputy when I'm on holiday, right? And then we also uh put this whole topic in the whole team and it was fine for everybody, right?

So for me, that was super uh like the most fulfilling period of this 2.5 years when I knew when I go to holiday with my family and I lay on a beach in France that I don't need to read my emails, right? Uh and reverse, of course, uh when he was absent, I was doing a kind of that job. So, um again, as you said, I did start exploring that and then, mm at last year, when I mentioned to my boss at that point to reduce to 60% from 80 in order to have enough of time uh to focus on my side project or even starting my own business. He said no, because he thought, uh I wouldn't have enough time for my main job, right? And that goes back to the opportunities. Um you know, you have to be at the right place at the right time, right? And you have to know what you want. And at that moment, um obviously, it wasn't a good fit and I believe that the companies should really, really encourage employees. For example, I think Google, I am not sure if they do that even today, but they had this whole 80 20% culture. I mean, you are employed full time in a full time contract, but you still have Friday to work on any side project you want. And that really brings and actually encourages employees to be even more motivated because they know that their talents are fully um fully exploited, right?

They know that maybe they have a talent for as I have, right? Organizing events, running community networking, connecting people um creating matches for job sharing, right? But uh that is not my main job, right? But I still love to do that and I can do that and employees uh sorry, employers should understand that diverse uh set of skills at every personality at every apply are actually a huge asset for their enterprise, right? Um I don't know if you are familiar with this term of T shaping, right? As a letter of T you have your um uh specialist in, in one area, for example, you might be super back and developer, but uh you are t shaped in terms of that, you understand uh front end code, you might be even able to write a bit of front end code or to even make a discussion with uh somebody else who is doing that.

Uh or you understand the aspects of DEV ops, right? When we are talking about it again, or you even understand data science or et cetera, et cetera, right? And because I always say to, I always say that to everybody, you can't be only a specialist nowadays, you have also to be a generalist. And uh this is what some companies are understanding or starting to understand. And I always say this type of side projects, they don't have to be indefinite, right? They, they, you can, you can have side projects for one month or three months and set goals. That is by the way, what works for both sides, right? To say we will have a kind of road map, we will have a plan with milestones and um and, and by the way again, I need to uh mention Cisco or some other companies I know uh mostly larger companies that they understand that, right? They, they really encourage that in, in different programs, uh you know, talent development, uh side projects, et cetera.

Uh Do they support uh personal side projects or do they support maybe something that's uh just to clarify for uh the audience? Yes,

uh yes. Good question. I would say the personal projects need to be done in a free time, right? This is not your working time as far as I know. But then um you can combine those skills, right? You can combine the skills you gain in your personal projects um to and apply them to your working projects, right? Uh And uh at work, um again, there can be so many different initiatives you can actually suggest, right? Um I don't know about the audience, but um again, when I come back to the systems example, we've been through so many transformations and organizational transformations for the years. And I think that does resemble to many of us, right? This whole digital transformation again, organizational and becoming or agile as a company, really like a whole company on all levels. And then you can imagine that sometimes you do still work in a bit of traditional project and then you can always uh suggest, right? You can always say, yeah, I think maybe we can improve this or we can improve that and it doesn't even have to do with transformation of the of your department. But anything around your work, right? Uh maybe you have a typical uh set of tasks you have to do for any role. But you see a bit, you see out of the box, right? You see the whole picture, you see all these interfaces.

Uh this is again, engineering me talking, but you have to and that comes by the way with experience, of course, that comes with experience and that comes a lot from talking with others and listening to them. So you have to be open and courageous to ask all these important questions. And uh you have to be clear that OK, maybe you will get the first. No, right? Or even a second, no or third, no. Uh But you have to, if you want to do that, you have to stay on track, right?

Uh If, if it's OK to ask, uh like how did you present your um when you went to talk to them about reducing your workload so that you can handle that project? How did you present it to them? Um So that, so that you convince them?

Um Well, I mean, when we are talking about this last year, when my boss at that time said no. Uh first, he knew that I am already running this internal community at Swisscom, right? And he knew that uh I'm a mom and I call it family manager here at home. And uh he knew that I'm, I'm very good at my current job at that point as um a test uh lead in this whole hr testing setup. Uh But he also knew that I want to do much more, right? And then you can imagine again, that goes back to this kind of mindset, right? Are you, are you supporting your employee to go further? Are you giving him or her this chance? Right. And, and saying this person or this employee has this diverse set of talents and interests and motivation to do this or are you really putting them in this kind of box and saying, I'm sorry, but I can't help you. Right. And, and then I always, again, from my today's perspective, I always advise everybody I know and who asks me, don't spend too much time and too much. Uh Yeah, too much time in a situation that is not fulfilling for you. Right. Um I it's just not worth it, right? And um so, but back to your very original question. Um yeah, you should have your pitch deck, I suppose. Uh you should be very clear what you are uh presenting.

They always say, know your why, but know your what and how, right? So you should have all these different things cleared up for you and then you can practice your pitch, of course, in front of your audience at home or your best friends or best colleagues, whatever. And by the way, it always helps if you're not alone in that initiative, right? If you have a team colleagues, if you have friends, uh whoever it is, who is sharing the same idea. That is also when you have to um run your start up or to create your own company, it is quite difficult to do everything by yourself, right? So again, to sum it up, be clear, have a pitch and have people who are backing you up.

Thank you for that one. Uh that take us uh takes us to the fact that yes, you wanted to achieve something more with your idea. So you ended up being an entrepreneur. Um And I think it would be interesting because I'm sure there's women in our network who also are interested in that. Uh What are the challenges that you face as a woman entrepreneur?

Um I have to say that actually, as being a woman entrepreneur, I don't have any challenges or I really honestly didn't notice any like, you know, wrong comment or whatever on the contrary. And um that's by the way, probably goes back to the fact that there are not so many women entrepreneurs and anyway, still not enough women in t So actually, honestly, everybody is very happy to talk uh about the idea about the business and to support me, I really have to say I had so many people who are, who I didn't know originally, right?

But they were co I, I was connected to them through my colleagues or friends and I, I've been really super grateful for all these talks and insights. Um The only thing that is a fact is that um it is true that we still live in a very male dominant culture. And maybe even even if you read about Silicon Valley itself, it is also very male dominated and mostly the start ups that are funded or run by like a typical male team. You can see all these photos. Yeah. Right. I mean, um or in the press or wherever. And so social media, like a team of two male founders, a team of four male founders, six male founders, I even have an example. I don't want to name them of a company start up in Switzerland with eight male founders. And then I was like, what is going on there? I mean, were, were they not looking for this one lady? Right? At least one, you know, um anyways. And so again, it's a very hard, there are still these stereotypes, right? And the bias is about five funding and about is a woman really capable to run this business. But again, there are more and more role models, there are more and more examples that prove the fact.

And it's even statistically proven that the not only start ups but even the companies, larger companies that are, that have more women in uh board, right? In um sound uh uh managerial board are actually ultimately more successful in the long run. And um I mean, I don't want to brag again about the greed or courage or even soft skills, but uh I don't want to be biased, but I uh I always say this diversity, right? Diversity of gender and diversity of different backgrounds, of different skills, um different uh mindsets and, and that is really what is the dream team, right? And not having four women founders or four males founders and they are all like 30 years old and they all come from the same university and have spent the whole life together already. I mean, it, it might be good for them. It might be successful. But sometimes you have to say to say, you know, so again, I hope that was a good answer to your question um around the challenges and I think that was the second part. Sorry, I forgot.

Uh Well, actually I had one that came up as we talked because you did mention uh that you don't feel like you have exactly challenges. But then maybe you have some lessons still from, from the process itself that you think would be important to share for somebody looking to start a business that has made it. Yeah. Yes.

Uh Well, my first lesson is um started as soon as possible, actually, honestly, really, um I was coining with this idea of starting my own business for years and then there, there was always, you know, something like, uh maybe it's not the right time or people would tell me why or you have such a cool job or such a cool salary or whatever, you know, and I have to also admit that this whole COVID situation really made me thinking and, and, and then I said, ok, now it's finally time, right?

Instead of um doing, I don't know what uh or reading news or like being worried all the time, I'm channeling all this energy and the motivation full time in this, this business. And um I do have this too short uh experiences of working at other start ups and that helps as well honestly. So maybe if you are not ready to start your business today, then try being an entrepreneur like in, in the company you work for uh with this kind of side projects as explained, right? Uh Make an initiative uh do something uh besides your main job and try that and, and mingle with others. Uh move in all these networks and communities, et cetera and see if you enjoy that. Of course, you can, you can test all of that, right? And then uh when you start a company, um again, you have to be clear about why you're doing that, right? Because there will be a lot of people who will be telling you even from your very closest circles, you can imagine again, why you're doing this or why you're like spending so much time on this, right?

And, and for me, again, it is um it is um about really making a social impact, really help being one part of this puzzle that will make this society first in Switzerland. And then if possible, also in the whole of Western Europe or globally to have more diversity in the workplace and more flexibility. And for me, that is my ultimate goal until the end of my life, really to, to work on that and, um, I have met a lot of people who are much younger than myself and I always say this is awesome. Right. Because when you're 20 or even 30 what do you have to lose? Right. Besides, of having courage, you have to be aware of that. You really have nothing to lose really? So, I hope, uh, these are a few lessons that I could pass to the audience.

Oh, I think they, they, they're very valuable. I think one discrepancy that happens is that younger people have less to lose, but maybe a little bit less courage just because, you know, you're younger, you, you don't know what's gonna happen sometimes when you take risks. I'm not sure.

I think it depends on people. But yeah,

I think it depends on people. Yeah,

but I do feel like one thing that entrepreneurs um besides being very proactive, uh which is one thing that you definitely, I feel sums up some of the advice that you gave is that they also give uh have great presentation skills and they have very good um uh speech speeches.

So I wanted to ask you, uh because we do have a lot of women in the network that uh do like to uh present. They also look for speaking opportunities. Uh And you have spoken a lot, uh you, you know, you're an avid uh speaker at conferences to kind of, if you can give at least a few tips about uh pitching effectively for a speaking position and then for doing a great speech, uh once you hopefully get that position.

Yes, definitely. So, first, I would say you have to choose a topic that you really know, right, that you really master, then it is much easier to talk about that, right? And then it is uh super easy to create the whole presentation and then later to answer all different possible questions, right? So there has to be something where you really excel and even if you're not sure, what is it, right? A lot of people are not sure. Uh then you can ask people who work with you, you can ask your boss, you can ask your friends or family members. Um and, and, and then also you can do this reflection exercise, right? What I really, really like to do and what I can do and then start from that, then you write down like let's say one pa right? Like one page script, like high level script, what would you like to talk about? Right. Introduction. Like, you know, when you write um scripts, even at school introduction and then the whole um the whole main part and then the summary, right? Um And and you make bullet points, you can create a mind map, whatever works for you, right? And then you can review it again by others and this is how I uh started I was um already running.

Um Actually the very first hr testing, um, meet up group in Syria in 2014 because that was my huge topic and my job actually, and then again, I wanted to exchange knowledge with others from other companies. And, uh, this is how I met. Um, that was kind of, um, I am, I'm sorry, I'm now missing the word in English. But it, it was kind of starter for me, uh, to actually approach those people who were even more experienced, of course in software testing or even hr testing uh to ask them, would you be willing to review my abstract? And then if you ask them right from your heart and from your motivation, they will help you maybe not everybody, but you will definitely find somebody who will help you review your abstract, review your presentation, you can present in front of them. There are so many resources on internet, how to excel your presentation. And I can tell you not every uh presentation was like super perfect. And I'm anyway, somebody who always aims for kind of high quality. But uh you have to enjoy, by the way, you have to really enjoy presenting, you shouldn't go there present because you think you should present, you should present because you want to present and um and then you know, you choose the conferences or events that you like again, uh I always say, don't go somewhere because whatever, but you, you go there because you know what you are doing, go going there.

Right. So there was uh for me uh as being first mom and then an employee and then a public speaker. It was great to go to London a few times or to go to even Chicago last year. I now in this uh difficult times, I cherish all these memories, right. Um And that, that is a huge opportunity, right? To also travel a bit and to meet all these awesome thought leaders on the topic you present and to get to get the great feedback and then you always bring this feedback into your next talk, right? And um so I at the end changed a bit of topics, right? It started with testing hr testing, running hr testing community, right? By the way, that was my very first talk and then later more around hr collaboration, how to make teams much better to work better together. And then later last year with this whole diversity empowerment, women empowerment topics and gender topics. Yes,

I love the evolution. How it went with you. Yes,

exactly. But yeah, I mean, I can always talk about the testing or a cooper operational problem actually

talking about that because we talked about entrepreneurship, we talk about diversity, but you actually are a woman with an extensive experience experience, sorry, in technology. So and we are a women tech network after all. So I was hoping that you can give uh some advice uh your your golden advice, uh, for women looking to enter tech or women who are already in tech, um, based on, you know, being so long in the industry. Mhm.

Yes. Sure. Um, well, I'm a huge fan of, let's say formal education. Right. So, it helps if you have studied, uh, at least in, as a bachelor student. Um, a bit of, let's say it, computer science. Any engineering. Right. Again, we see nowadays that at the end it doesn't really matter what you studied. I know people who studied social sciences, anthropology, journalism, et cetera, who ended up in tech. And I mean, almost every job nowadays is a bit connected to tech. So, but it, it does help uh to study, it does help to go to university or to high um education schools because there you will learn how to think you will learn what is important, you will learn to distill the information, you know, to read all these books and uh research or articles.

Um Again, when you are maybe 18 or 20 you might not understand why is that important? But again, it is important on the other, on the other side, um It really depends on the personality, right? You maybe don't want to study or don't want to learn and um like that. Uh but then there are so different other ways, right? There are online resources, there are communities again and, and so many communities, like in the last years, it's it's really crazy, right? How many chances and opportunities there are to learn? And um so yeah, again, summing up the learning opportunities, they're immense, right? Um How to break into t it's some other story, right? Uh But again, if you did one or the other course in uh one or the other thing that really interests you, I also always say to everybody I know, don't study this or learn that if you're not interested because then it's not a good match. You should really do what you, what you're really excelling in and what really interests you. And then again, it can be so variety, a lot of variety of those roles, right? You can be, for example, social media or communication manager or digital marketing manager for I know so many women if you are talking about women who are excelling in digital marketing.

Um and by the way, I would also know a lot of women who are super good, good programmers or data scientists or have done phd in math or statistics. So again, know what you want to do and then find those resources, find those people and communities that will help you or courses or universities and then stay on track, right? Don't, don't give up too soon and know that it is always a path and learning path of ups and downs, of course is everything in life. But um you have to know that um and to enjoy it, right. So, I hope that was clear.

Oh, I actually, I, yeah, I love your advice because it's not even so much about, uh, being a woman, it's just about being new and, yeah, I think that's a, that's a universal thing that actually can be useful to anybody. Um, I, I do have a question from Par V that it is about, uh, how to balance work and other, uh, activities of interest. But since we talk so much about uh job sharing models, if you want to say something more to that, feel free, if not, if you feel like we cover that topic quite a lot. Uh I was gonna invite you to, to give the audience uh like a final message that you want to do as we are getting close to the, to the end of the.

Um So shall I answer the question about work and life balance

or? Um Well, the way party wrote it, I wrote it is how can we manage work and other activities of interest? Uh I'm guessing it might have been related to passion projects again. Uh But if you think that you have uh if you want to talk about work life balance, then uh go ahead about uh talk about that. I'm sure people uh can use that.

Um Yeah, I think, I think first, it depends on the circumstances, right? Uh Because again, uh again, in my example, if I have stayed in Serbia, then I would have at least one, grandma. Right. To, to be there all the time for me or my kids or my family. Right. But here me and my husband are not near any huge help. Right. So we kind of had to make these cuts in our, um, work load and to kind of say, ok, you're earning a bit less but you have more time with your kids and it's always part and it's always a matter of organization, uh how you want to organize your life and work and in this case, family, uh what are you going to, let's say sacrifice?

Um That is true, right? I might not have time to go to beauty beautician every week, right? Or, or to do whatever, I don't know, to go out every night. Um But it's, it's just a matter of your priorities. So again, you have to be clear about your priorities about your organization and how you're going to communicate that at work and also uh in your private life. So, um for work, you should I advise everybody to find this setup and to find this company uh you work for or you even run by yourself to make it really fit your needs, right? And uh and then it's much easier otherwise, if it's not working for both sides, then sooner or later, it might be a bit of a problem. And uh yeah, I hope that answers a tiny bit, this question

I, I hope so too. But uh just uh to add, if uh somebody wants to ask you questions additionally, can they reach out to you on linkedin uh or somewhere else?

Yes, definitely linkedin. Yeah, I can also post my email address in the chat. There is somebody asking if I have recommendations on diversity in the work space and this is great question. Now, none of the podcasts come in my mind, but I have to check that later. But I, what I did want to mention is uh one part um about diversity. Uh There is actually from this June uh research and the paper from World Economic Forum. Um They call it a toolkit for leaders to accelerate social progress in the future of work. And there they state these three main areas of action like first is like how you source and select your talent, then how you organize your organization and monitor it. And the third is again, employees experience reward and development, right? So I think uh for this part of uh talent sourcing and selection, I didn't really, we didn't really tackle this in this talk from the uh from the point of enterprises or employees, employers, but definitely for the employees, right? And I did say that um it, it is best when it comes from, from employees itself, right? And then for this part with their experience and development, I think we did tackle that a lot. And um so again, um I can post maybe a few links later in the chat.

But um there are so many resources from uh from United Nations even, or from World Economic Forums or from some other really huge organizations that are experts on these topics uh that we, by the way also use for, for our research and for data, we present to companies when we, when we pitch our business.

So um yeah, and for the books. Um OK, I am a huge fan of uh the whole lean in uh movement. So to say that was started by Charles Sandberg, right from Facebook. And um I advise uh especially women in this call or in the audience to read Lean in uh because it is full of, of great advice. And um and also on the website, you will see there are so many circles around this whole lean in movement and then there are some few more um few more books uh around diversity and also gender issues. Yes, I I can thank them later in the chat.

Yes, that would be awesome. I think everybody would be, would find it very useful. Uh Since we're kind of uh running a little bit over schedule. Do you have anything else that you wanna leave the audience with today?

I have noted something. Uh um

Yes.

Uh Well, it was, it was a bit of um I mean, I did mention know your why or start with y you know, that comes from Simon Sinek, whom I was a huge fan of, I don't know if you know about him or the audience, but one of this uh actually his latest book is about this uh infinite mi mindset, right?

How you should, it's kind of if I can somehow paraphrase it, uh it's kind of um growth mindset and this is really my last message to everybody, right, to employers and employees to always have a future in mind and always have um this thought in mind. What are you actually achieving in the long run and how you're making your company culture being satisfactory uh for all employees. And of course, for the business, right? You don't want to ruin your business, but really create this kind of place where where people will, will thrive.

And again, I always say to all individuals um cherish and uh extend uh your learnings on this type of growth mindset, right? And understand that uh maybe not in every situation or every year, you will have this super cool project, right? But always you have to find and recognize the opportunity even in your current project to make it really work for you and also make it all together as part of this whole puzzle and the road map you have in your work life.

Oh my. Thank you. That was, that was wonderful thing I would say. Uh And thank you for the chat. It's been fantastic. Uh I enjoyed it a lot and we're huge fans of how active you are and how perseverance. Um And uh everybody who's uh here, uh I just wanted to let you know that you can join us on hopping uh for some networking in the networking area. And maya if you do have the time, I know that you, that you are busy, but if you do have the time, feel free to join as well and meet some of the people who have been here with us. Uh I just wanna thank you. I just wanna uh have a couple of very quick announcements that you can also join us for more fireside chats on November 18th. We're gonna have Stephanie Leblanc Godfrey. We're gonna be talking about parenting and taking your Children on your career journey. Uh I hope you enjoyed the chat and let us know in the comments. And uh meanwhile, just to remind you that the Women Tech Global Awards 2020 are happening on December 3rd. Nominations are now available. So make sure to check out who's been nominated and the finalists will be announced on November 13th. So follow us on social media to stay in the loop. And that is basically thank you everyone for joining us today and now we're gonna see you online.

Maya Thank you again.

Thank you, Vasilina. Thank you everybody for your attention.

Thank you. Pleasure,

bye everybody and you as

well. Bye.