Good day, everybody. Thank you for joining us at our meet and greet session as part of the women Tech Global conference sponsored by dotel. My name is Petra.I'm a talent coach at dotel and I'm so pleased to welcome to the virtual stage three, incredibly impressive technology professionals who are part of our amazing top talent network. We are honored to have them here today to share their experiences as women in tech with you. So please welcome Catherine Conaghan project and product manager.

Hi, everyone,

Jess Souza, visual designer. Hey there and Yolanda Correa developer. Hello. Hello, ladies. Thanks so much for being here today. Before we begin, just one note for our audience, um You can ask questions if you have them in the chat. I have it open. So um whenever there is an opportunity, I will uh re read the question to our amazing participants. So feel free to uh ask them um or comment on what they are saying. So feel free to, to join. OK, ladies. So um you are a dynamic group of experts all from different countries and you all share similarities of being women and working as freelancers taking on projects around the world and you sometimes face similar challenges. So I want to jump right in today so our audience can learn through your experiences, many of which I'm sure they can relate to. Um Catherine, let's start with you. You mentioned to me previously that you wish more women knew about the opportunity that working in tech offers.

Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Yeah, I think obviously things are, are definitely improving in that regard, but there's a long way to go. I think um for younger women, maybe tech is kind of a very broad, vague sort of thing. What is like, you know, you're working on apps, what are you actually working on? And it is a broad area. But I think within that there's a huge opportunity. Um So like working in tech, you can work in virtually any industry, education, med tech, like medicine, finance, like sustainability. Um and you can also change within industries as well. Um So I think it would be like great, like more younger women who have an interest in certain areas know that tech is a way to work in that area. Um And uh as well as just like working there, it can also uh sorry, it can also offer the flexibility that you get with working in tech. So like you can work remotely and you can get into freelancing and you can travel things that maybe you can't do with traditional jobs in those industries.

Um So I think there's, there's a huge amount of opportunity there and also the ability to be able to like move between industries and get experience in different areas. Um So I really like like events like this are great just for kind of getting that message out um to women as well.

So yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, raising awareness that working in tech is definitely very diverse and especially when you are like you ladies working remotely and freelance you, like you said, Catherine, you get to work with a lot of different clients in different industries.

So it's it's really a great opportunity. Um Yolanda, I know you also spoke about young women and how they don't necessarily get exposed to tech enough in a way where it becomes part of their identity. Tell us a little bit more about that, please.

Uh Yeah, I think generally as, as young girls, there is a lack of role models, not just uh global scale role models, but like um closely around you and also having to deal with the navigate the gender bias towards stem related fields. It's there are those these stereotypes about how an engineer looks like. Uh and it maybe doesn't necessarily resonate with a young girl. So it it's, it's hard to imagine yourself following uh that path and girls in general are more nurtured towards uh caretaking um careers or uh paths that are more typically linked with the emotional intelligence. So, yeah, from, from uh formative years, there's this idea of what a woman should be and should look like and, and what a man should be and should look like. And in, in there you have what an engineer uh looks like. So I, I can imagine that and, and I've, I've been through that. It, it takes a lot of courage to pursue a, a stem uh field and I don't think it should take more courage than it should take passion. But at the moment, I think for a lot of girls, that's how they're feeling.

Yeah, I, I agree with you completely. As an organizational psychologist, I also read a lot of studies how young girls actually have the same interest in stem. But then when it comes to their puberty years, like 14 or something, they lose it. And we as a society and as women in tech, we really need to um work to be that role models for them. So I, I really, really um really, really agree with everything that you said. Thank you so much. Um Jessica, you also worked a lot in tech. And I know that through tel you've gotten great experience working with international clients. How has your experience with those international businesses specifically helped you to support your skills and career development.

So, working with international clients, helped me a lot to learn about different target audiences, different cultures, different markets and to learn about a lot of new products, new technologies and stuff. Because whenever I'm working on a design project, I need to understand the product.

I need to understand the culture where this is going to be more and it needs to work to its target audience. So it helps me a lot like learning stuff that I would not learn if I didn't need to work on a project like this. And it is amazing because it helps me a lot growing and evolving in my career even as a freelancer, because sometimes when you're freelancing, you don't take the time to like learn something new or do something different because you have so much work to do. But working with international clients helped me a lot to see different markets, different styles, different cultures. So it is really, really good.

Yeah, that's really eye opening especially I also relate to that as coming from a small European country. You know, I uh I also haven't been exposed to a lot of different cultures before starting work in tel. So yeah, that's really an amazing benefit. I'm glad you had such great experiences. On the other hand, being a woman in tech is not always the easiest Yolanda. Prior to today, you shared that you learned a lot about navigating uncomfortable situations that sometimes objectify or even disregard women. What advice would you give to fellow women on how to navigate these types of situations, especially in the tech world.

Well, I think every workplace environment is subject to different power dynamics. So it's, it's really important that you uh understand and, and learn which battles to fight. But uh I think in general just being conscious of, of the choices that you make and also that not making a choice is actually a choice in itself. I think for many years, uh I, I sort of took that uh that path of ignoring a lot, lots of things uh towards me and towards my peers, not just women, but also other minorities. And I think right now I'm still overcoming the fact that I was complacent uh in front of this situation. So I wish sometimes I would have taken a stand and, and, and spoke, uh about certain things that should not be acceptable in the workplace.

Yeah, but it's sometimes it's not easy. So don't, don't cut yourself short every time you do bring it up. Even if in the past you didn't now just raising awareness and just talking about this also helps changing the situation. Do you think? Is it different in freelancing?

Yes, definitely. Uh, when you're freelancing, you can make a, uh, an active choice of when and where to deal with these uh situations. So it's not something that you have to deal on a daily basis or you trying to focus on your work. But then there's also these situations around you, this sort of background noise that you also have to deal with. So yeah, being, being a freelancer gives you a choice whether or not you, you want to handle these issues.

Yeah, I agree. Thank you so much for sharing Yolanda Catherine, you shared that the majority of women you worked with have been high achievers and outstanding performers. Why do you think that is other than because we are awesome.

Yeah. Well, to clarify headline, we are awesome. Um Yeah, I am like, I think kind of falling off from what Yolanda was saying earlier, like, it's not a traditional career choice for women necessarily to get into tech. Um So I think like initially to get involved, you have a higher interest in the area or maybe like natural ability. Um So I think like that, that is like, I've worked with male engineers before. That weren't even sure why they went into engineering, they just ended up in it. Um You know, that that doesn't really happen with, with women in, in uh in tech. So there, there's definitely that um but then again, like kind of what we've been touching on, there is an element of women wanting to prove themselves that they can deliver and that like I deserve to be here. Um And like, I have often found that at the start when you're going into a new company or not taking on a new freelancing role, maybe you have to prove yourself once you've proven yourself, it's fine whereas men are already accepted as kind of proven and if they don't meet the standards, it goes backwards.

So I think there's, there's that different dynamic that, that women have to deal with. Um So yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a bit harder. I think the more women that come into tech and the more women that are already proving and we can do this, it, it's just gonna help, um you know, uh overcome that barrier essentially. Um But yeah, I think like without exception, nearly every woman I've worked with in tech, I'm like, if there's women on my team, I'm like, great, we're going to get stuff done. So, yeah,

girl power, the more the merrier. Yolanda, you also commented how uh you also share some of these um opinions like Catherine said, like the field to perform higher. Yeah, I, I,

I normally get this feeling that I need to perform higher than my male peers to be perceived at the same level as them. Um This is, I mean, it can come from the fact that you really do need to prove yourself, but also from the insecurities, there are sort of uh instigator on you from many years of trying to fit in and, and, and be like, yeah, I, I can do this as well as, as, as my male peers.

Mm Yeah, definitely relate to that. Jessica. Is there anything you've experienced as a woman in tech that you believe male colleagues have not. And if yes, have you found a way to reduce strains from such experiences? Help us to do that the same?

Yeah, in my career, um that's been like nine years now that I work with design in our direction. So I have had a lot of different experiences. Things are definitely getting better with the years. People are starting to respect us more and open more doors than before. But I still see some stuff like I send one quote to a client and if it may appear in the same level as I send a higher quotes, the client will oftentimes say yes to them. And to me, they will try to negotiate the fees and reduce um the actual rate instead of reducing any sort of the scope of the project or anything to make sense. Uh For me. So this is kind of annoying and oftentimes I get like feedback that's a little bit more harsh than with men. Uh The way some clients talk to women is sometimes like as are if they are not the expert on what they are doing and it is not the case. This is definitely something that I see a lot clients questioning more when a women deliver a project than when a man does the same project. Uh And the way they phrase their feedback sometimes is a little more aggressive towards women than it is towards men.

Uh I think things are definitely getting better, don't get worried. We are working on this. Uh, and I think one way to make sure that, um, things are not out of control like clients going crazy is trying to set some boundaries since the start. Like you hired me because I'm an expert in this. This is my professional opinion. This is my professional advice to your company and that's it. Um, not getting into like, oh, what do you like? What do you dislike? Especially in line because it's very subjective. Um But yeah, being like setting boundaries and being professional helps a lot.

Yeah, definitely. And you mentioned the harsh feedback uh has that impacted how you feel about your work and capacity?

Yeah, it still does affect me a lot when I get like a bad feedback because I feel like I'm not a good designer that I'm not good enough that I should be doing better. Uh I think this is kind of normal unfortunately, but we need to try to remind ourselves that we are not our work, first of all. And we are not defined by one project. As when you are talking about a professional, you have a lot of different projects that went really well and sometimes some of them will not go so well. So try to learn um with what went wrong on this project and try to get better on the next one and like, don't let bad feedback make you feel like you are worth less or you're less of a good professional.

Exactly. I mean, as a talent coach and psychologist, I definitely work up with a lot of talent about receiving feedback. And yeah, being open to receiving feedback is important but also to receiving it with, you know, conscious decision on what to apply and what not to, you know, feedback should be received with an open mind and heart but not taken personally, especially if like what, what you mentioned design specifically is very subjective.

If you know that you did your best, take the feedback and move on. That is my advice.

Exactly. I definitely agree.

Thank you so much for sharing. Um Yolanda, tell us your thoughts about whether these kind of experiences can impact your professional or personal identity.

Well, I like Jessica was saying work doesn't define you, but we spend so much time at work. It's sometimes it's hard to separate your personal identity from your work identity and being a woman in a male dominated environment. It's it beco it can become very hard to fit in. So I, I often question myself with the like, am I feminine enough or am I too feminine or do I wanna be the cool girl or should I be more assertive and does being more assert assertive make me sound bossy or you know, those, those types of things? So I think it's really hard to, as a woman to find your personal identity in your professional environment when it's male dominated.

Yeah, I think we can all resonate to that the balance between assertiveness and feminist. What is considered to be feminine is sometimes really hard to achieve, especially in tech where still men dominate. But we are getting there. Thank you girls.

Just to, just to add on that. It's, there's no such thing as being too feminine or not too feminine. It's like you are who you are. But for many years, I, yeah, being, being in a, in a male dominated environment, I, I struggled with the, with those ideas.

Exactly, because we are surrounded by them. But thank you so much for being the frontiers in help making the world a better place. Actually. Uh Catherine, let's move on from maybe these topics. But how did for you did free freelancing, make a difference with some of what we are talking about or let's focus on what aspects of freelancing do you love? Yeah. Well,

um, yeah, I made the move to freelancing in, in March 2020 which was a scary time to do it. But no regrets. I, I really, really, um, think it was the best move. Um There's lots to like about freelancing and like there's a lot of flexibility involved. Um You kind of, you could work with within a certain extent to your own schedule. Um You can also ramp up or ramp down on hours. So like if you want to work on more projects and you want to, for a few months, I'm going to work really like multiple projects going head down work and then you can take some more like additional time off if you want to go traveling or whatever else you might have going on.

Uh For me, it's two kids under two. So that's how I'm balancing it. Um And uh also the reason I actually went into freelancing is I wanted to get more experience in other industries. I've been working in sustainability for 10 years and I wanted to kind of get exposure to other areas. Um So it's much easier in freelancing uh to do that. And since that I've worked on lots of different uh like industries, the event industry, like fintech, some medical stuff.

So yeah, you can have multiple projects going at the same time as well, just get exposure. Um That's great. Um We kind of touching on what we were saying there is, I also find when you're working freelancing with um with the company, you're very focused on what the task is at hand, what the project is, what is the project we're releasing. And I there's less opportunity to get caught up, I think maybe in the politics of a traditional office environment, you know, where people might just have there's time to kill people who are talking about stuff and comments get made and things like that with freelancing, that's like nearly like very minimal if at all because, you know, you're generally getting paid for every hour that you're working and you need to get the work done.

It's very focused. It's very rewarding because you're like, adding value, I think constantly. Um, so I think all of those things that, uh, made for me anyway, freelancing was, um, uh, a great opportunity and I'm really glad it's the road I went down there are like, it's not all like, there's, there's like a trade off between like your traditional kind of uh like office job where you're working with like a company.

Um There's less security involved in freelancing obviously. So that's the trade off for the more flexibility. Um And uh I think probably the biggest challenge for me when I thought about going freelancing was I have to get clients. How am I going to get clients? I'm not good at selling myself. It's not something I'd like, you know, to contact people and all that sort of thing. Um So that's why top tag was a great option for me. Once I got onto that platform, it made it a lot easier. Um I think that that route into freelancing cuts out that kind of you having to go and find lots of clients and sell yourself and like, you might not have um exposure in that certain industry, whereas on something like top t to even get on to what you've proven that you can deliver.

So, um that helped me a lot um on my my freelancing journey. So yeah, there's, it's, it's, it's mainly good there. There's some negatives to it. But yeah, for me it's, it was um it's, it's, I'm glad I made that decision and it's the way I'm going to keep working for the foreseeable future anyway.

So, thank you, Catherine. That was very brave to do at that time. But I'm so glad that was worth it. No, not crazy. Brave. Sometimes brave needs a little crazy to be brave. Um Yolanda, we, we also have a question in the chat that actually is related to what I wanted to ask you. So you experienced both. Uh What would you say are the biggest differences between working in a traditional 9 to 5 tech positions versus the freelancing work you're doing now? And to combine with the question that we got in the chat, uh Busha said that usually organizations take freelancing, not as serious as on site roles. So she asked, how can you, uh what suggestions can you give to justify freelancing work versus is on site when you go on site on an interview, for example? And they challenge you? Like, why would they take a freelancer when they can, you know, when you, they can take somebody working on site? I think that that is the gist of buss Bora's question.

So maybe to combine it with, with the one that I wanted to ask you,

uh I'm, I'm actually some, I, I haven't had this experience of ever since I started realizing I have not uh tried to apply to on site roles. Uh, but it surprises me that organizations would take it less seriously as full time employees because the way I see it, uh, freelancing takes a lot of skills. Besides the, the one you might be uh working at, whether it's engineering or design or, or PM. Uh It takes a lot of organization, it takes a lot like uh sales capability. So in, in, in my view, if someone would ask me to justify freelancing, I would say freelancers are much more well equipped to take on different roles and different types of responsibilities. So, yeah, I don't know if that answers the question, but fortunately, I haven't had to justify my decision to do freelancing and to answer your question. Uh I think, well, freelancing, the, the most surprising thing that uh I experienced besides the obvious, having more control over your time and things like that uh is actually my social interactions have become much more meaningful and intentional. Um I guess in the beginning of your career, you're most likely thrown into uh one size fits all work culture. And if you're a bit of an outlier that might not work out for you and you might not understand why.

And for me, it took me a while to realize how like Catherine was saying the politics in the office, but not just the politics, just the, the overall background noise and the constant switch between focused work or social interactions with your, with your um coworkers that was taking a big toll uh on me on my mental health and it was damaging my performance.

So I think switching to uh a freelancing role has allowed as has created big positive impact in, in my mental health and my performance.

That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah, it, it really the flexibility and the ability to, you know, separate the parts of, of the interactions are definitely big, big benefits. Um Jessica, do you want to add to this? And I'm also wondering if you have any great tips for anyone looking to start their own business as a consultant or a freelancer.

Yeah, I definitely, I have both experiences like working on site jobs um and then working as a remote freelancer mostly for other time zones and it helps me a lot to organize my days. It helps me to kind of use my time in a more efficient way, which means like I do, I don't have to work from 9 to 5. I can, I have a deadline and I can work whenever I feel like I should be working, especially working with creative projects. Sometimes you are not being able to deliver what you need to. So you need to take a break, like go out, walk your, your dog, do something different. Clear your mind and then go back to it and working as a influencer, allow me to decide when I want to work. I just need to meet the deadlines and just like me to make sure that a client have everything they need to. And my main tip would be to never work for free. Or when you are starting a freelance career, you may want to charge less just to bring more clients or anything like this. I don't recommend doing that.

I do recommend knowing your value, knowing how much your hours um cost, always charging uh inside of that and making sure that you meet the deadlines and you are someone reliable because this is what makes new clients come to you. Mostly most of my clients nowadays come from referrals and from Toptal. So even through Toptal, I do have refer from my previous clients. So this is what makes me get more clients. And if you are starting instead of working for free to have more clients and more projects, try to be really focused on the project, you are doing, charge it correctly and make sure to meet the deadlines and be somewhat reliable.

That's amazing. Thank you, Jess. Um all to close today. What other than what Jess already mentioned? What is one piece of advice you would like to give women in the audience who are working hard to succeed in their careers, whether as freelancers or simply as women in tech

Yeah, I, I just kind of following on there from what Jess said that like, I think knowing your value and focusing on the things that are you need to do to deliver your job. But then also where you want to go, like, if you're thinking in the next 5 to 10 years, I want to be working in this area. I think women tend to say yes to everything. Like we're good at multitasking and maybe take on more than needed. Like whereas men are better at saying no and I think that's definitely going to help. Um If you, if you're very focused on terms of like what's adding value, where do I want to to work? Um Yeah, that's, that's basically I would just like value your time or prioritize how you spend it when you're working. Maybe I could tell myself in my twenties to do that.

I think I just did you want Yeah, definitely less tired Jess. Did you wanted to add on something? I see the raised hand.

Yeah, I saw the question uh from Erin there. Um First uh whenever working on a start up project, you should try to find all the funds that invest in companies related to yours. Uh You can go to, for example, Angel list or any other of these websites focused on the start ups, try to understand what funds could potentially invest in your company and then start trying to pitch for them. Also try to look for different investors on platforms like linkedin or even like Google investors that are looking for companies in the same area as yours or search for your um for your like competitors and see who is investing on that, on their companies. So I think that's it. Oh, we have just one minute. So yeah,

just yeah,

try to search for your competitors, see who is investing and you will probably find the same investors.

Yolanda, quick word 10 seconds

just to be true to yourself to your needs. Uh Yeah, don't, don't be afraid of make career change. What, what works for some people doesn't have to work for other people. So yeah, that's it.

Thank you everybody. Thank you ladies for being here, sharing your wisdom and perspective. We greatly appreciate you. Um We, we really appreciate everything that you said and thanks to our participants for uh questions. Um and I think we are at the end of our time. Goodbye everybody.

Thank you. Bye

bye

bye.