And yeah, we'd like to also welcome up our next speaker, Floriana G Gramlich, she's Director of Product Payments at Zalando. And she's gonna talk about how to be a product leader instead of a product manager. Please give her a warm round of applause.

Hello and apologies. I'm a little bit under the weather today, but I have some helpers here in order to guide me through. So um glad to see you all here and kind of to give you a little bit of introduction. So you also know with whom you're talking here about. Um So I'm Floriana and basically I'm almost two decades now, sound very old. Um mostly in the tech industry, but not exclusively. I actually started in advertising, political advertising and then moved over uh into a banking group.

And I also talk about this a little bit and then also worked with paypal ebay um at Twitter or X and now most recently at Salamo, um more or less like many, several um roles also as an individual contributor many times, but also leading quite big teams. Um also with being a lead of leads and also uh engineering. And I studied history and have an MB A. So I didn't uh study um computer science whatsoever. So that was a big challenge. But it changed my perspective on product development a lot. And that's also brought me to this talk today, which is about product leadership instead of product management. Um Ultimately, I'm super um like motivated about developing people and really also how to see and how to bring people forward in their life also, especially women.

Um As I still also, each day still see how difficult it is uh for us actually to make our way and for this matter, for any anybody in a, in a diverse uh environment who's uh different in that sense. So, yeah, um moving, moving over uh to uh the matter of this today, right, management or leadership instead of management. So as I said, I started off in a banking group after advertising Spain finance group before the Germans. And as you know that with the RED S and there was actually a company called Spain Fin Spot High um still existing, I believe, and they basically tried to handle everything online uh for this group and 400 at this point. And yeah, I basically tried to convince the leaders of those two that not branches are the future, but actually online. And also online banking is the thing. Uh now kind of the one of the first um interactions I had there was like going to the guy in the sixties white hair, um, like suit. Yeah, I talked about this. He nodded after that I sent a follow up email. Yeah, I received back a fax. Basically. What has he done? He, the secretary took it, printed it, he put in his notes and then the secretary faxed it back. So for the non Germans fax is still a thing in Germany. Um we also sometimes needed due to legal reasons. Yeah.

And this is also a little bit like where kind of this classical managerial types came from, right, more or less like control things and um kind of where I also got the first time in interaction with the CEO of the product. One of the things I really love the most is also an interview question I asked at every interview, hey, we're talking about is the CEO or kind of the product manager being the CEO of the product. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Hm. Ok. Not too bad. Um And also kind of like huge PS or BS or both in the worst case product requirement, documents, product requirement, documents. And basically people who are not trying to solve customer problems and actually working backwards from this customer problem, but more or less like working on solutions and trying to execute on them and managing the process during the whole time instead of more or less like leading through it like with empathy and I will talk about empathy a lot because I believe empathy is one of the most important drivers that you can apply these days um as a human being but awesome product.

Uh If you're not empathetic against yourself or your customers or others, I think you're good. Um Yeah, so instead of being uh empathetic, listening, curious about um things and actually um uh lead instead of managing. So why should we aspire uh being product leaders instead of product members?

Yeah. First of all, you don't want to write P DS and you shouldn't anymore. I think we are very far beyond agile um in this case, but also kind of when you look at leadership today, it usually implies uh people, leadership, right? We are here um product leadership. Uh there is a product leader. So it's hierarchical, this person um is most likely leading more people and other people. And uh I, I believe it's different. It's not always about leading other people. It's about really kind of applying leadership principles also to your product.

So not assuming that you know, everything um being curious about it, asking the right questions um instead of jumping to solutions, um maybe let's talk a little bit about kind of why I come to this. Um So three pitfalls uh to look at product management instead of product leadership. One, I already mentioned the whole thing around this, the product manager being the product, uh the CEO of the product, what does it mean? CEO of the product means this is the only person responsible for the product, but that's not how it works. You want to aspire to work in multidisciplinary teams, they want to be on a level, product engineering, analytics, data science, um design research and so on and so forth, right? And that's how you should work as a team and not having one person basically saying you do that, you do that, you do that. Unfortunately, it still happens that way. Um Then either the pro product leaders or the product person is then acting as the CEO or as the project manager, but ultimately not empowering the team. And the teams are not autonomous and ultimately building that products. It's unfortunately still quite common.

And ultimately, we are aspiring to have power teams, autonomous teams. As I just said, uh also when you look at engineering and I don't know how many of you come really from a tech background. Um But when I started, basically, it was a lot of discussions was more or less like with engineering. Here are the user stories. OK, let's go. And uh I actually, I did disastrous things over time. Uh When I had worked with pay, for example, I had a, I was building a new product and had a team kind of pitched a long time. Then I had a team in India who actually was very junior at this time, kind of went through all the stories with them without context, without strategy um without them kind of helping to understand being part of this problem from the first place, the outcome was something nobody wanted.

It was a waste of time for everybody involved for half a year. And ultimately to be totally thank super disrespectful of myself towards this team to actually act this way. So you not want to have a delivery factory or a future factory. You want to have people who are on the the problem from, from the start. Same holds true as another pitfall is more or less like to be too process oriented. I love processes, but I'm also like per mindset. I'm a little bit of a control freak something I learn to live with over time and kind of worked. A lot of coaching is a big thing. I really love. Um I can only recommend this uh and uh but more or less like going back from processes to actually finding products that actually solve a problem that has a product market fit. Um Is uh really here a completely different challenge if you only work with the process. Um you will also get somewhere, but ultimately, you always want to go back, back back to this customer user discovery. Same, same with the last pitfalls if you're focusing too much on execution. Uh And it often happens also, right? Um I, I currently work at salon and one thing kind of I love from the start is this obsession to be discovery focused. So really working on the four D cycle, that's what we do, right?

So really a long lot of emphasis on discovery and execution comes on one part. But then also the ideation uh starts again. So really treating this continuously as a product if you only focus and execution and again, like CEO woke up and now the real CEO, not the person who thinks, who is the CEO of the product. Um Hey, I have an idea. Uh Yeah, let's build this. Then basically you are, you are again a complete executioner and again, many product management teams or product development teams work this way. Yeah, pitfalls, but how to apply a few things and basically make the place a better word, word. One is um bring everybody on the table sounds simple, right? But actually talking about with engineering data science, analytics, bring them in from the start, bring them in once they have identified that this is actually something you want to solve on, bring them in on the strategy from the start. Um And that's also a big thing and you, many of you might have also read books, right? It's a, it's a common thing that many companies still don't have a strategy being at a business strategy or and then no product strategy and so on.

That's also a reason why they're actually uh in this product management and execution trap at some point. So really also empathizing the strategy from the start talking the strategy through um being a Bangal list of this strategy. Um But also showing how this actually links back into the company strategy, how this links to key results. Again, also metrics I can talk about this all day long. Um If you don't, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist. Um And that is still also a problem that many are actually so focused on just getting something done, Let's ship it. Um That actually forget about um how to actually measure measure this and being very consequent about this, always like strategy actions, how this is how we measure um you'll get out of this trap. Um which also includes like quite a precise and also inclusive uh communication.

Um I think we all like, I'm, I'm a bit half, introvert, half extrovert. I have my introvert dates and my team knows already when I'm my in introvert um period and I don't and I avoid people. Um But many are that way, right? So being exclusive also means in, in environment, if you want to bring everybody on the table, give room, sometimes listen, take a step back. Um and also accept if others have other ideas than you have. And actually, it can broaden your horizon so much uh and actually will help your products. Um If you do this, um which also means being present, creating trust, empathy again, um is like a huge thing. And like there's this Clifton strength profile. I don't want to make advertising for it, but I really love it because it's cheap relatively and €50 or something and kind of, it's, it's a relatively good personality test. In my opinion, in my profile, empathy is the last point. Um So 34 why are you talking about empathy all the time? Because I believe still that I'm empathetic because I'm trying to talk to somebody to get into the shoes of this other person. And that is something I'm trying to do all the time. And that also means leadership, not assuming that, you know, but more or less like trying to understand how the other person person takes. Um And then if you couple that also with asking questions all the time, why, why should I do this? Have you validated this? OK.

Do you think that this number really fits into a funnel? Um Is that really also solving anything then this is more or less like also um uh helping you in your product leadership um uh journey. I want to segue a little bit because now we talked about product management, product leadership. Um But one thing I'm also quite passionate about is more or less like also treating your own career as a product. And uh this is more or less like you can apply these whole principles also also to your career management, which I don't know why I often visit with them. It is sometimes forgotten. Many brilliant women also like met in my time, but also in my team, they do a brilliant job. But the one thing they forgot is more or less like taking care of themselves, which is um not so common with men. Um We can theorize about this but um I I would love that also women can learn this a little bit more and also do this and, and, and taking more time with their career, with their career. Um And one first step is more or less like to understand who you are. Um What kind of leader are you in general? Um Personally, I'm, I would identify myself as a servant leader as my preferred leadership style.

But I'm also sometimes I need to apply transactional leadership, transformational leadership, sometimes also authoritative leadership. Um Even if I don't like it at all. So knowing this first, who are you actually and then treating yourself also as a product of all these things that I just mentioned more or less I know about strategy. Why don't you have a strategy for yourself? Um Basically researching yourself, knowing what you want, where you want to be, what is your uh aspirations? What do you not want? I think it's super powerful actually to know what is, what is something that you're not aspiring to and basically create your own strategies here.

So research yourself um get out of this hustling recently, I'm kind of especially in these times, I hear hustle a lot which means hustlers execution. Um And again, we also need execution. But getting out of this kind of, I'm hustling all the time, but take a step back breath and also have empathy towards myself that I am as important as any other person actually, that I'm taking the time and actually investing um into this. So, yeah, but ultimately leadership is a mindset uh applies to, to products to yourself, to others. Um And find yourself being the right leader here. Uh I want to close with one final sequence here and more or less this one thing is how you want to be. The one thing is also in what environment you can be that person. And uh yeah, we are here in Berlin, Berlin, Germany. And we have a lot of great companies. We have a, we have Sal I'm a bit biased because I work for um but ultimately not every company is the same and many companies say they're inclusive that they are actually fostering leadership in this attitude. Um find it out yourself if that is actually true. Um And really take the time because if you're in an environment that is not fostering that line of thinking, then you always lose.

Um And one thing I can say with the Salon, we now for, for two years, I actually started as an individual contributor in a team with 3 p.m. product leaders. Um It's, we're now over 40 this is, was because I was unable to actually lead to bring out the product strategy to actually execute on this product strategy at some point. But also to create an inclusive atmosphere within leaders that they actually can do this and can then again be multiplicative. So yeah, I'm happy to see you all here. Have fun. Uh And again, be who you are. Thank you a Floriana. Um

Now we do have time for questions. Oh, straight away right there. Hang on. Let our microphone come to you also. Thank you to everyone who's watching the live stream. You can also submit questions. I have my ipad here. I have access. Uh So, yeah, feel free.

Uh Yeah. First

of all, thank you very much for, for talking to us today. Um My question kind of relates to one of the last points uh that you mentioned that ultimately empathy, inclusiveness, diversity, all those buzzwords that pretty much every company right now is using. And the reality is that in, in my experience, the majority of the places I have experienced or, or spoke to my friends who work at very often, the reality looks very differently. Um So is there any advice that you would have in terms of being able to screen ahead of time? Uh for what is, what is words and what is actually true, um true, uh inclusive or empathetic leadership in a company? I'm asking very, very uh because I I relocated here a few months ago and I'm in the process of now thinking what I want to do next. And this is a very massive question on my, on my mind constantly, how do I actually effectively screen and I am able to identify culture and leaders that will be um that will be uh will be helping to grow and um will be, will create a good environment to, to grow.

It's a, it's a good question. Um is also something where I actually did a lot of mistakes because I always thought what is on paper is also true. So I actually research a lot. Um First of all, is there really a culture behind this company? And is that the company takes some time in order to also map down these values? That's the first thing we research in the company and then also researching a lot kind of what has been talked about this company, there's blind fish bowl, uh glass or obviously talking to others like Berlin, for example, is a super small world. Know everybody knows almost everybody somehow um really figuring out how much is actually true. Um And that's as small as like I if, if I would be not looking for another job, I would research a lot. And what I've currently seen also what is happening over the last two weeks, which I believe is really terrible, like with all these layoffs everywhere in some summer, but you can also somewhere connected here and there to the culture that the company has. Um if people are treated as resources or really treated as people and kind of as like in software development, people are the biggest investment that you have, right? And the ticket can only the culture can tell you um absolutely agree with.

Um or you

said, um and to add, I really like the tip that you mentioned about uh just asking like how people would, especially in the product, how people or how the lead of product perceives their role. So this kind of like, oh, so do you see yourself as the ceo of product? Um Is there any any other, this type of kind of tips or, or little hacks that uh you develop or collected over over

years? One thing is also look at the interview process, uh to be honest. Um There are some processes that are simply weird uh to be honest and, and not, not inclusive at all. And I could maybe with a beer or wine, I can tell you, but they are really where all red flags go up. Uh And, and that's also a little bit something, right? Kind of usually we are trying to get data as much as we can, but ultimately, we also have our gut, which is also muscle that we have trained your guts at some point will tell you a lot. Um Personally, I'm, I'm sometimes I trusted in some occasions, not my gut and all the time, I actually really, really, really regretted it. Thank you very much. And you, and you need to like the people like that's also kind of un testing people and, and sometimes I'm just interviewing just for the fun of it. Not that I didn't necessarily want to go, but I had one person that was in an interview process, it was like, no. And if, then this is also an indicator, right?

If you're having people there where you believe, I don't want to drink something with that person or simply going against your values, I think values are super important thing to guide you.

If I may add, I'd say you're also doing it now. I mean, you're meeting people, you get to know people, you make contact, you ask them how it is. I think you can learn a lot by having a conversation with people saying so you're doing a great job doing it now. All right. Uh Any other questions? Yes, over here, Carmen gets to have a bit of a workout today running from side to side.

Hi. I have a question you mentioned that you want to bring uh every uh team to the table and speak by your opinion. And so, but uh at the end, it's like you have already uh a new image of the product, how it should look like at the end and they are just bringing like features or uh depending on what they are bringing to the table you are, uh developing on

it. So basically I'm really trying to always go back to actually what I'm trying to solve for and which it, as much as I can with data and trying to avoid to come to conclusions, uh, on my own. And that is also a little bit discipline. Uh, so kind of, I, I, for example, I'm saying, I'm always having an opinion, almost everything, but it doesn't matter. Um, ultimately, it's more or less like to do the right thing. And here also, and then the pm, especially if it's a strong opinion, one needs to discipline themselves. So I'm, if you're going to the team, you already know this is how the product looks like and you're basically tasking them with execution. And that's kind of the one thing where I'm, this is what I'm trying to avoid

and how is it when uh several teams have different opinions and there should be an at the end conclusion taken to go further.

Sometimes it takes a little bit longer. Ok. Yeah. But I think it's, it depends. So for example, it's a land we disagree and commit culture. Um That might be that one or two people are seen kind of not buying into that and sometimes you can pursue it, but basically you should be able to pursue it also people. Um then you might, if you can't, then you might need to think about. Do I really have the right data? Do we have the right arguments? Do we need to go back and research a little bit more in order to, to do this? Um, that's also possible. Right. Um, usually if people can follow certain arguments because it's simply logical, um, it's, it's easier also to come to the same conclusions. Otherwise you just simply have opinions also in the team and that's what you're trying to avoid. You wonder that everybody understands what they're actually solving for.

And that is not a question.

Thank you very much. Ok. And I think we're gonna wrap up there if you have any more questions, she's here, she's around, you can talk to her any time. Um, and so let's give her a big round of applause. Thank you. So.