Uh Well, thank you so much for the introduction and thanks everyone for joining this morning. I really appreciate the time. Um Our talk today is called Eat Pray Tech. It's gonna be a fireside chat with me and Christine.Um So hopefully you'll feel super engaged and ask us questions along the way. A little bit about me first. Um I'm a senior product manager at Sum Up, I've been here at Sum up since March 1st. So it's quite new for me, but really exciting. At the same time, I'm currently focusing on the virtual wallet experience for our Consumer Tribe. Um Fun fact about me. I'm a big fan of Real Housewives, real reality TV series. Hope there are fans out there too and I also love to collect wine. So that's a fun fact about me

and hi, I'm Christine. I'm senior product designer at Sum Up. Um I've been here for over two years now. I'm currently focusing on payment links as well as gift cards and QR Codes. Um For a long time. I was the only designer as well as the only woman on the team. So I'm happy that Victoria is here Um and I love dogs, killing plants and social distancing. Um So a little bit about some up for those of you who might not be familiar with our company. Um Sum up is a leading mobile point of sale company um based in Europe, but we have, we're in over 33 countries and with 3 million merchants. Um Right now, our team is over 2600 employees with over 60 nationalities. Um Our largest offices are in Berlin, Sao Paulo and Sophia. But we have a total of 16 offices. Plus we um we allow remote work. So there are a lot of opportunities there.

Yeah. So just to know a little bit more about my journey, I'm going deeper. Um I'm Asian American. Uh I grew up in the DC area. I went to University of Maryland where I got my bachelor's in finance and information systems. Um And the right place for me at the time was to go to Wall Street to work on their fintech software. So I joined Blackrock in 2011 and moved to New York and then I started my journey there. Um Then I moved to project management because I wanted more ownership. I wanted to see how things developed over time. So in 2013, I switched to project management and then I wanted more ownership and my mentor at the time actually suggested uh product management. So then I decided to try that out and I fall in love with it ever since. Um But after six years on Wall Street, I decided to quit and start solo traveling. Um So that ended up turning into a year and a half of uh traveling. And then that's the first time I came to Berlin as a traveler. And then in 2018, I actually moved here for a job at Kwon Do. Um So I've been through a few start-ups since I moved to Berlin. I also joined Billy, a small fintech company that was less than 100 people. And then I also joined Slab, which was an American company.

Um This was during lockdown and COVID and recently I joined Sum Up, which um is really cool because it's a new experience working on mobile apps for me.

Um Yeah, and I'll tell you a little bit about myself. Um I grew up in California and as any good Asian kid does, I went to a University of California. Um But unlike a good Asian kid, I didn't study engineering, which is what my parents really wanted me to do. So I settled on communications, which I can't tell you what I learned doing that. Um But I had the opportunity one summer um to do an internship at Scholastic the Public um in New York. And I just fell in love with New York. And I also, it was my first time realizing that art could be a career. So I ended up going to Pratt Institute for a twoyear graphic design program in New York. Um So I ended up staying in New York and I kind of fell into digital design by accident. Um I started with production design and I learned U I and UX design along the way. Um And during this time, I actually started taking my first solo trips and I was meeting all these people like from Australia, those damn Australians always traveling. Um And Europeans who were going for months at a time. Um So I decided that I would start saving money to travel. And eventually I made this a dream similar to Victoria, um which is why we called this uh this talk Eat Pray Tech.

Um I've never actually read the book or seen the movie, but you know what we mean? Um Yeah. So uh along the way, I met my husband when I was traveling and eventually I moved here to cologne. Um and I worked at Trivago, which was my first experience at a truly international company, which was very eye opening. And since then, I've joined some up.

Yeah. So today's chat is gonna be fireside chat style and we have our stories mapped out. Um So that we talk about where we were our past and then where we are now. So in the last year with COVID and everything and then where we will be so our future outlook. So as I'm going along these um questions and we're talking, you'll see the questions on the screen actually. So for those in the audience, we want you to type in plus one in the chat. If you feel like you can relate to it and if you want to share about your story with others, feel free to do that in the chat as well. So we're gonna kick off um for the first question, what does it mean to be a woman in tech for you? Christine?

Um Well, I would say that now it means to me um that we can bring a unique perspective to a very male dominated industry. Um I feel that if we're given the space that we can bring a lot of empathy and inclusivity that might not otherwise be the. Um But I think that we also really need to make um an effort to claim that space. Um But in the past being a woman in tech, what it was, um It was a lot of not being taken seriously for me having to negotiate harder for opportunities and raises. Um Yeah, like if I'm not part of the boys club, I felt like I was just, I didn't have any growth possibilities. Um Another thing that I had to battle was like the Asian stereotype of being quiet and polite and how people perceived me in that regard. Um What about you? What does it mean for you to be a woman in tech?

Yeah, I mean, I can totally relate to some of the things that you talked about. I mean, um I'm a pro product manager and I think by default, you're this like mini CEO of your product area. So you're in this quasi leadership role by default. Um Being a female product manager, you know, you're one of the few women, if not the only woman in the room. And as an Asian American woman, I feel I'm, I'm not part of the boys club. I'm not invited by default. I was born out of it. Um So I feel I have to work twice as hard to prove myself. But in general, what it's like to be a female product manager. I mean, I'm dealing with microaggressions all the time. So people using gender biased adjectives to describe me that they wouldn't describe a man, right? So pushy, aggressive, sensitive, emotional bossy, it's super frustrating, right? When people describe you as that. Um And the second thing is also getting feedback that I think only people would say this feedback to women but not men. So a good example is I had a previous manager who was like, oh, you need to smile more meetings. And I was like, that's kind of weird. And I was like, would you, would he say that to my male colleague? Um And my male colleague was like, no, he never said that to me. And that same manager asked me, he's like, oh, you're too quiet in meetings.

Um, you need to speak up more and I said, ok, I can speak up more and then when I started speaking up more, he's like, oh, like when you don't agree with me, you're too negative. So I'm like, the only choices is I have to agree with him and if I don't agree with him, then I come off as negative. Um, could it be that I'm just offering alternative views and he just didn't see it that way. Um So yeah, it's super frustrating just to be a woman in text sometimes. Um But since I mentioned some hardships I face, like what are some hardships that you face early in your career? Um Being a woman or even being an Asian American woman?

Um Yeah. So as I mentioned, I kind of fell into digital design by accident, um which involved a lot of figuring things out on my own. Um And like the first couple of places I worked at, they weren't very good at nurturing young talent. Um And yeah, actually, I was reminded just yesterday of this story. Um At one of the companies I had what I called my work brothers. There were four of us sharing at this cluster of desks. It was me and three guys and I mean, most of the design team was men anyway. But um so we were there sitting together and I felt like even with my peers that they were always teasing and I mean, we had a lot of banter, which was fine, but they didn't know when to stop. So that at some point I would just end up crying and they didn't know what to do with that. But I also felt ashamed because I felt like I had to toughen up and fit this mold of what was um what they felt like was normal. Um And funnily enough like so in this cluster, there was me, there were two white men and then one Asian American man. Um and the two white men were the ones getting promoted. Um leaving our cluster of guests and that was a bit frustrating.

Um And also at the same place, there was this other guy who came in quite junior and I was quite sick of his attitude. He had a very privileged attitude and he could sense that he was, I wasn't, he wasn't my favorite person. So he would often be like, why don't you like me Christine? And I didn't know what to say to that and it felt like I had to like him. Um And it was, I feel the workplace allowed him to have this attitude where he would always be like give me five Christine, give me five Christine to try to prove to himself that he could get me to high five him. And one day I was walking away from where he was sitting and all of a sudden his arm came around me and he was like, give me five and this was such a threatening gesture and I was really shaken and it was the time when I didn't know how to explain why I felt like that. Um Yeah, so I felt like just watching these people get promoted. It was, it was very tough. Um And having to navigate that. Um What about you? Can you talk a bit about your uh hardships?

Yeah, I mean, thanks for sharing about that. I mean, the guy who made you give him a high five. I mean, yeah, I mean, that's crossing boundaries right there, like personal, professional and just human boundaries. I mean, for me, I um I think the first hardship I faced as a woman was just being doubted and I felt I needed to prove myself. Um And I think the way that manifested is I felt like it had to be seen as one of the guys in order to be accepted. Um And the memory I have is that when I first joined Wall Street. So every first year analyst who joins, gets a second year analyst who's supposed to train you and show you the ropes. Um And I was the the only girl out of nine people who joined on this particular team. So the eight other people were, were men. Um But my buddy or my second year analyst used to pop quiz me. So I would just be working. He'd be like, ok, pop quiz time, how do you calculate the price of a 30 year treasury bond which is like kind of hard to do. I mean math is actually not my strong suit like mental math. And so it was just super frustrating that I'm like, OK, I was literally in the middle of work and now I have to sit down and calculate the price of a 30 year treasury bond.

Um I accepted this in the beginning but then I realized I was like, I'm the only one getting pop quiz. Is it something about me? Like, why am I like lacking in some area? Um But then I started to call him out and I was like, are you only pop quizzing me? Because I'm the only girl on my team? Like why aren't the eight other people who started with me also getting pop quiz? And then he was like, whoa uh like, yeah, it's not that I, I just felt like I need to pop quiz you. I was like, yeah, well, you need to do to everybody on the team, right? So that's, that's something that happened to me. But I think yeah, it just, it kind of led into this like self doubt and negative self talk that I had as a woman. I mean, I'm the daughter of Chinese Taiwanese immigrants. So being first generation America means you have a lot of pressure to achieve the American dream. Um There's like this sense of perfection that you have to achieve, which is completely unreasonable and unattainable, but it feels at the time that you, you can do it because of the pressure of your, your family.

Um And also I think even if you're not an immigrant or um from an immigrant family, perfection for perfection was a forms of families where love and approval are conditioned by performance, whether it's academic performance, athletic, performance, uh performance as a daughter or a son or whatever.

So, perfection forms in a lot of people I think, but I had this deep rooted internal belief that I wasn't good enough and that imposter syndrome really came out. And I guess for people who um don't know what imposter syndrome is, it's usually a term that says for people who believe that they're not deserving of their accomplishments, right? And so, yeah, this came out quite often in the workplace and even sometimes it occurs in friendships, relationships and everyday life. Um Yeah, how, how did you manifest any kind of negative self talk you had as a woman in tech?

Um Yeah, well, as I said, um there wasn't a lot of guidance in my early jobs and something that happened. And I saw this with other young designers too where when you kind of are always doing the same thing and feel like uh there are no real opportunities for growth. It's very easy to start doubting yourself. Um, so, yeah, I actually started wondering if I wanted to continue being a product designer. And, yeah, when I actually, um, started traveling, I thought, ok. Well, I'm gonna travel, see if I find a new place to live, maybe I'll find a new career along the way and I was kind of ready to give it up. Um, yeah, and just traveling I wanted to be free and that's kind of why um early in my career, I was often a contractor, which is a great thing about being a designer is that you can be a contractor as opposed to being on staff, which gave me the freedom. I mean, especially in America, like you get five vacation days a year when you first start at a company. So um it was just a dream. I had to be free and all like all senses of the word. Um Oh yeah. Well, what about you?

What triggered you to do your travel?

Uh Yeah, I mean, I can completely relate. I, I was going through a super hard time um in New York City. Um and I think that led me to have like a ex existential crisis. I'm like, what's the meaning of life kind of feeling? Um I actually started going to therapy and I told my manager at the time who was a woman and she said, ok, yeah, um I support you, you know, you do your therapy and then a few months later in a 1 to 1 she says, um I noticed every Monday you're leaving the office early. And what I was leaving for was my weekly therapy session at 6 p.m. So leaving at 5:30 p.m. on Wall Street was considered leaving early, you know, so that's the kind of like environment it was. And then she asked me to stop going to therapy. She was like, um yeah, I think you should stop going. And I was like, do you have examples of my work that's not getting done when I'm leaving early? Like, did a client say something? Did a project get missed? Was there a deadline that I didn't complete? And she's like, no. And I was like, OK, well, where is this coming from? Is this your personal opinion as my friend? Because we were quite friendly at that time? I was like, or is this your professional opinion as my manager right now? And she's like both. Um So then after that, it was kind of a turning point in a relationship and then I actually switched managers through reward. So I had a different manager and then I tried again. Um I was just super burnt out at the time, just mental health wise.

And I asked for an unpaid health sabbatical, unpaid. So I was like, you don't have to pay me. I'm just asking for a break, right? Like it's Wall Street, everyone needs a little bit of time off because, you know, 18 vacation days aren't gonna cut it. Um And then he said, um, his answer to that was not if you want to keep your job. And then when I said, like I emphasized it was for my health and he said, but you don't look sick. Uh So then I had the epiphany then after dealing with two managers at the same company, like I really had to stop putting other people's needs and dreams and my job first, I really need to start putting my dreams, my health, my mental health, everything that I needed for myself first.

So I think the important lesson here is we need to stop glamorizing, overworking, right? Like the absence of sleep, diet, exercise, relaxation, personal time, your friends and family, like that's not something to be applauded. That's not like a trophy you take home every day, right?

Like, and it's definitely not something that should be a performance metric at all. I think too many women wear their burnout as this like, badge of honor or like a award that we get from men. I don't know, it just, it really needs to change. Um Yeah. So I think, I think that's, that's the gist of what triggered me.

Mhm. Well, so what did you do when he said you couldn't take your sabbatical?

Yeah. So I end up buying a one way ticket to Thailand. Um, and like any American, I was so worried about the gap in my CV. I was like, how is this gonna make me look once I, you know, take a sabbatical and come back to jobs and stuff. Um So I had lined up an unpaid internship. I was like, OK, I'm gonna, um I'm gonna figure this out. I have this unpaid internship in Bangkok for this little start up that does edible insects. Um I did not, I did not actually eat any edible insects in Thailand. Um but it would mean that I would get to work um for free. I was basically a volunteer and then the owner of the start up realized I had super good experience like actual real work experience. I'm not just a regular backpacker that comes and volunteers and he was like, why don't you come to Shanghai with me? We can do this accelerate program together. Um And you have such good experience for it. And I was like, yeah, that'd be really cool. And he's like, the only thing is like, you're not going to be paid and I can't like house you there. So you have to pay your own, you know, living fees and stuff like that. And I was like, ok, well, would I get equity out of it at least? And he's like, no, you wouldn't.

And I was like, I, I think it's a really cool opportunity, but I'm not getting paid, I'm not getting equity. I have to use my travel savings to help him get through this accelerate program in Shanghai. So I just had to stop myself. I was like, wait, like I just spent six years working through blood, sweat and tears that I just need to go live my life now. Like I'm allowed to rest more. I am allowed to take chances in my best interests and I'm allowed to say no instead of pacifying others and telling them yes. So I ended up not doing it. I, I did something for me. I was like, this is, this is good. Um But yeah, what about your travels? And like, how did you end up, you know, retrospecting on your career during that time?

Um Yeah, so uh while I was traveling, I didn't know if I wanted to continue being a designer. Um But I think what I really needed was to, I needed space and perspective to get all those outside factors away um from how I saw myself in my career, like, like just getting away from the toxic environments from toxic colleagues. Um So when I, it was time to go back to work, I was actually reinvigorated. Um like I had been very jaded, but I felt some hope. I mean, I was still very guarded of myself and my well being. But I think what, what the travel ended up doing for me is that my identity stopped being my job and like myself, who I am as a person became my identity.

Yeah, I think that's super important that your identity is not tied to your job because there's so much more to you than that. Um But so how did you end up in cologne?

Um Yeah, so I met my husband when I was traveling, he's German and after doing some long distance um where I was back in New York, um I decided, ok, maybe I'll give it a shot because I'd always wanted to live abroad anyway. I mean, I never would have chosen cologne to be honest, but um that's how it goes. Um Yeah, what about you? How did you end up in Berlin?

Yeah. Um somewhat similar. I uh I was traveling in Vietnam at the time and I end up befriending this German guy and he said, yeah, if you're ever in Germany, come visit me in Hamburg. Um So I did decide to backpack through Europe and I end up visiting him. This was back in like August 2017. Um And when I was done with traveling, I just, I decided to start looking for jobs and I knew I wanted to live and work abroad, like really have the full immersion experience. Um So I thought of all the cities I really liked when I was traveling and Berlin was one of the top 10. So I got the job offer from Kandu July 2018 and then I was in Berlin, like foot off the plane. September 1st 2018. Um, so, yeah, it was, it was quite a quick, uh, decision on my part. Ok.

Ok. Um, well, have you noticed any differences between working in Germany and in the state?

Um, yes, I have. So, I think culturally working in Germany and the States are very different. Um, I think, uh, so far I've seen a lot of positives so people work, work but they don't, it's like they don't live to work, they work to live here in Germany. Um, they value their work life balance way more so that taking sick leave isn't considered like this major career setback for you. Um, I mean, back in the States working in Wall Street, I used to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner in the office at my desk, which is super sad when I think about it now. Um, but I wouldn't even leave the office until my manager left the office because that was the kind of like fear that was instilled in me like any second I could get fired for no reason. Um And yeah, and I would work weekends and then, you know, that culture of facetime just it's just more pervasive in the States. But here like, you know, first of all, it's not as easy to get fired just for no reason. And there's also this mentality that you can go to the doctor and the doctor can write you a doctor's note for burnout. For example, that's like a valid reason and you still get paid leave.

So I feel really supported by the healthcare system here and just in general, the, the work culture that I'm part of. Um So yeah, if I want to take a long medical leave here, it's not like a big no, no or career setback here in Germany. Um But have you noticed anything for your, for what you've experienced?

Um Yeah. So when I talk to friends back home and they say, oh, are you gonna move back to America? Like I tell them I've gone too soft to live in the States again because as you say, like, I mean, there's way more work life balance. Um The, it's funny that you mentioned that you ate three times a day at your desk because I, when I look back on the over four years I've worked here, I think I've eaten a total of three times the whole time at my desk. And that's because I chose to because I just wanted to get something done. Um, so that's really hard to give up. And as you say, like sick leave, um, I remember talking to one of our colleagues and I said, well, how many sick days do we get? Because in the States, like, for example, you get five sick days a year and his response was, well, how can you predict how many days you'll be sick? It's just very logical. Um, but like, I mean, moving to Germany, it wasn't all just great things obviously, like the change actually um triggered my depression, um which I've been dealing with for a couple of years now. Um just trying to adjust, trying to um understand the culture. It's been a very hard thing. But at the same time, um for example, like, uh when I do have to take a sick leave, nobody is gonna ask like you're not actually allowed to ask why you're taking a sick leave.

So I think, um, that is really amazing about working here. Um, well, how has the last year been for you? I mean, like, we've all been having a hard time with COVID and all of that. So how was it for you? Professionally and personally?

Um, yeah, it was, it was quite hard. I mean, I think it was hard for the whole world. Um, but yeah, last year was super hard for me. I started a new job in January and then I got locked out during the first week of lockdown actually. So this was mid March. Um, so I had to seek unemployment in a foreign country and actually the, I think the job center was closed and I don't know if anyone, if anyone knows Germany, it's like you have to go there in person, you need to fill paperwork and you just digital

things. Yeah,

they don't, they don't, they don't really have the infrastructure for digital submission for unemployment things. So I just had to figure it out and like roll with the punches. I was like, ok, if I don't get unemployment, then I have enough money to support myself. And I even questioned whether I want to stay in Germany. Actually, I was like, maybe this is a sign from the universe that like, I'm not meant to be here. Like the time has come for me to like, say goodbye, maybe if things don't work out. Um And II, I thought about it, if I, if my visa runs out in three months, then really, really, it's a sign that it's time to go, you know, but my anxiety really kicked in super badly. I was just so anxious about finding a job about the future and my imposter syndrome was like rocketing sky high. Um But I think what helped was as I was interviewing, um I was doing on the case uh on the spot case studies, which actually I kind of hate, but it made me realize that on the spot, I knew the answers. Like I actually knew a lot about product management that I gave myself credit for. Um And I think, you know, that really spoke to me as OK, don't doubt yourself like you are killing it.

And if you know, it doesn't work out if you get one rejection, that doesn't mean it's a whole reflection of your self worth, right? Um So that's how it kind of manifested for me professionally. And then personally, like I mentioned, you know, I was having really bad anxiety and my imposter syndrome was part of that. But I, I guess like everybody else, my mental health did suffer a bit since I was so far away from home. Like I had no family, no friends that like I knew when I moved here. So it made me develop a really close support system here in Berlin. Um that I'm super grateful for like my colleagues, uh my friends, people that I met, even during Corona, they really supported me. And I mean, I feel super supportive sum up right now by my colleagues, my manager and just the overall culture. So it's good that professionally and personally, I have what I need in order to feel safe and like I have a place to go. Um Yeah. So what do you think needs to change though in order to encourage more diversity um at some up? And

um well, before we get to that, let me just tell you a bit about how it was for me the last year. Um Like I actually had a hard time with COVID. Um because when we, we went into lockdown um because I think with depression, like it helps to have routines and everything was just the same and felt stagnating and also just reading about the awful effects of COVID actually had a huge effect on my depression Um And then in the summer in the States last year, the Black Lives Matter Movement was going like crazy and I mean, there was some uh activity here as well which we were able to participate in.

But um like my husband is German and being surrounded by Germans who just didn't understand why these issues were so deep hitting for me. That was very difficult where I felt very isolated and not supported the way I needed to be. Um And actually that culminated in me having to take three weeks off last summer. Um which again, like nobody questioned that. Um It was just a really great way to recharge and kind of gain perspective and turn the news off a little bit. Um Yeah, but like one of the reasons I talk so openly about my depression is that I think it's important to normalize these things also in the workplace. Um Some up does a great job of supporting mental health. Um But also I feel like in the last year because of the Black Lives Matter Movement, I've gained the language to be able to talk about all these experiences that we've been talking about. Like, for example, I didn't know what gas lighting was until the last year. So it's very helpful to know how to um educate as well, whereas identify my own feelings. Um Yeah, but so with sum up, we have a lot of support in, in some groups such as the women's circle, which I'm part of. Um There's also a group for mental health and pride and racial diversity as well as neurodiversity, which I didn't know what that was until I learned about this group.

Um So, yeah, if um we also have a slide showing our diversity and inclusion team, if you wanna just, yeah,

oops need to go to, I was looking at the chat. So

the chat is very engaging right now. So thanks everyone for sharing your stories. Um Yeah, we just wanted to show you that we actually have uh an entire department dedicated to diversity and inclusion, which I find very inspiring. Um Yeah, so I just wanted to give you uh like the faces to this team. Um But moving on to your question from before, um what needs to change? I think that these groups are very helpful for us um and contributing to these groups is very empowering, like in the women's circle that I'm in. Um We talk about kind of getting to the root cause of why it's so hard to get women into tech, which is that girls aren't, aren't encouraged and they're not given the information when they're young enough to dream to become engineers or, you know, product managers and so on.

So we talk about wanting to go into schools and talk to girls and especially low income schools. I think that would be very, very helpful. Um And yeah, I think just continuing to have conversations like this lifting other women up, like that's the best we can do. Um, as well as for example, something else that our team has started doing is like posting jobs for part time work so that women with Children can feel like they can apply. Because a lot of times you hear like whether it's a woman who feels Underqualified or just doesn't ask for enough money, like we're always asking for less than men. So if we kind of try to tailor job ads to these people and make them think, oh, maybe I can do this like that can make a huge difference. Um What do you think needs to change Victoria?

Yeah. Um Before I get my answer, actually, I, I wanted to add to that. I heard something recently from a friend that was um about how certain job advertisements, the language that we use actually speaks more to um male candidates. And I didn't even know this was a thing. But apparently if you use certain adjectives in the job posting, then it actually um detracts women from applying. So like, I think if I think the example he gave me was like, yeah, if you, if you automatically say like looking for strong leadership and um I don't know, something like that, like just attitudes that normally would describe a man, then you tend to attract male candidates. And I, I was like, oh, I just learned something new today. Um But yeah, I guess to answer your question, like what needs to change, I, I think change starts at a micro level um and it can happen in many different levels. So I think if you're a person of power um or uh you're a manager with direct reports, I think it's super important to ask your direct reports. How can you help? You know, what is it that they need? You know, how are they doing in general? Like have a mental health check in? Um See if you know, there are things that you can do to help them if they're a woman or person of color.

I think people in hiring and recruiting, I mentioned the thing about um adjectives that tend to attract male candidates versus female candidates. But I think also putting more safeguarding and particularly around subjective hiring measures. So I've noticed that um in past companies, people will always use subjective measures like energy level like, oh, this person has such high, high energy, they're, they're such a good candidate. And I, I think that's super incorrect actually energy level. I mean, if somebody is an extrovert versus an introvert, that means you end up hiring all extroverts, right? Or you know, the way someone looks like judging them by, you know, it's judging the book by its cover or automatically assuming Ivy League versus non Ivy League. If someone's non Ivy League, oh, they're not as smart, you know, that's, that's also super subjective. So I think, yeah, if you're in a recruiting or hiring role, like put more safeguarding around these subjective measures um for, for women and um allies and women who are men, I mean, ask your coworkers who are women about how you can help learn about the topics that, that matter and educate yourself.

I think that's super important just asking like, how can I support you as an ally? And I think that is a great opening question. And I think for myself, it's just about bringing awareness and empathy to situations um that maybe my male colleagues or friends may not be aware of or even notice, like maybe these things will never happen to them, but they would, it would happen to me. Um And a funny example is on Friday, a friend told me about a female colleague of his who asked him after a meeting where I guess he got a little heated in a discussion. She asked him, are we good? And he thought it was interesting that she asked him this. Um and he's like, yeah, we're, we're good. And he said, thank you, thank you for speaking up and giving your your opinion. And she seemed surprised and I was like, when I, when I heard this, I was like, wait, like, actually I think I understand what she's going through. And this is me bring awareness and empathy to this, you know, to the story that he was telling me, I told him it's likely that more often than not um his female colleague was probably told that she was not appreciated for her opinions, right?

Um And that she had probably never been thanked before for speaking up. So it's, it's one of those things, right? It's just bringing awareness and empathy.

Mhm. Um Yeah, it looks like we're out of time. Let's uh will you say you're one? Uh I can listen

the whole day the whole day to you ladies. Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I think it did resonate a lot with our audience because they've been writing so many amazing things that it's amazing. It's really important to talk about a mental health. Thanks for sharing your experience. So they were thinking and telling that it totally resonates with them, especially what you shared, living in Germany. And thank you so much. I do agree with you, Victoria. We need to learn about the topics that matter and educate ourselves what COVID is teaching us and what is put, we are put in the situation where we have time to educate ourselves. So we don't have an excuse anymore that we don't know something or we don't have time. Thank you so much, Christine. Thank you so much Victoria. It was great to have you with us on this stage. Keep being the inspiration and role models for me and tech. Have a great day. Stay with us. If you can join the session, stay in the chat, go to the network and thank you so much.

Thank you. Get in touch with us. Bye.