Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for joining my session today. Uh I'm Nadie Milani and I am a career marketer. I, I've been more in the marketing tech space. So working on marketing automation, building marketing automation stacks for companies.Um my, I started as a uh working on an integrated marketing database. That's what my first job was. Um probably 18 years ago, not the traditional marketing job. Um But I think it's because of that um that I was, I've been intact that I've seen the perfection manifest itself in, in many ways, um specifically in my own career. So today I'm giving a talk on the pursuit of perfection and why it's killing you and your team. Um why I think it is and, and how I've seen it um kind of manifested in that organization. So I started off by just sharing this, this image. So um the reason why I'm sharing this image is because it's probably at the best uh very much of a peak breakthrough time in my career. So uh this is not a Wes Waldo picture. I'm gonna ask you to try to find me in the image. I'm gonna tell you where I am. So there I am.

And um I was definitely on a um I was just having a really great time and the reason why is I just had finished giving a uh a talk um at the email evolution conference and this is about uh 2019, obviously before COVID. Uh I was a featured speaker giving a talk on marketing automation. And I had just got off the stage and uh walked into a woman of email um uh gathering and it was just surrounded by brilliant minds and um I just really felt like I was in harmony and balance and um I just felt like it was a personal professional high. I had just left my two Children at home. They were really small. I just, I had this kind of escaped from, from the, the Children at home and um and had gone to this conference and it was just a wonderful harmonious and, and great time, but, you know, it wasn't always like that. So it wasn't always like that. Um And, and the reason why was because perfection was, was really getting in the way of success. So I don't know how many of you on the call today, you have 27 people wonderful that are joining the call who have seen perfection manifest itself or have experienced perfection.

But I certainly was letting perfection get getting in the way of, of my own success. So, you know, the way I, I see perfection is, is not wanting to get things wrong, not wanting to stumble, not wanting to fall. So really projecting yourself as that really competent person that can just do it all and you know, do it all in all areas of your life and at work and at home and I was one of those people who, who really was, was, was trying to, to chase that, that perfect perfection, perfection, perfection, uh hero or uh just to perfection in general.

So here's my story, I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk you through how it was, how it was um something that was getting in, in, in the way of, of my career. Um So this is me when I was, when I was uh some people are like, that's not you, that doesn't look like you, but some people are like, it looks like, like you a little bit. Um But I had, I just got my scholarship. So up until this time, as we know, uh as as Children growing into teens and into adults, we are praised for overachievement. We are praised for achieving many, many times over in our career in, in our studies, whether you're having great marks or you're um you know, doing great in sports or music. We're, we're, we're or praise as Children to just do things really, really well. So I thought I had a ha ha, you know, I, I had hacked life and, and the concept of life and how to really do life successfully. So, here I am with my scholarship to university, my parents beside me, really, really proud uh and you know, all my teacher were and there we have Louise who's also a recovering perfectionist. Um and you know, everything was going great and um I thought I'd figure it out.

So I took that logic and I started applying it into my professional life. So just do everything really well and, and everyone's gonna be happy including me. So, uh I hope this resonates because I have a lot of friends who thought this was the logic of life too. So we do really great at work. We're excelling, we get promoted, everyone's happy. Um I'm certainly happy and then all of a sudden you have Children. So I don't know how many, how many parents on call today are on jury or have joined us today. But we, you have your, your Children and then all of a sudden the logic of getting everything perfect, it starts to deteriorate and starts to crumble because, you know, I can't even, I couldn't find time to perfectly sleep or perfectly really do anything. Um And so it was, it was a struggle. So all of a sudden I realized, OK, wait, there's something wrong to this, this logic and, you know, then I went back and there's me in the French Riviera. So tho those who are joining us from the south of France. There's a picture of me and, and I think it was 10. My perfection is in the situation specific, which could be frustrating when you start obsessing about perfection out of the blue. That's Lisa. Absolutely. So, um, so this is me. Here go. I just had a child. Uh, what I traveled a lot for work at this time and, you know, I was trying to do it well, again, have going, doing my job perfectly coming home being a perfect mom.

Uh and that, that I had, that I had a second child, right? So then you think, ok, well, this is kind of working out so much, but I'm just gonna, you know, have more, more response possibilities and all of a sudden, uh things are just, are just hard and, uh you know, the pursuit of perfection was alive and it was alive and well, not only at the, at the home, but also at the office and, um, you know, it was really having an effect on me.

So at the office, I could see, you know, that perfection was really kind of coming alive in many ways. So, leadership team who expects perfect performance. So whether it was me or, you know, you see other senior teams um really wanting everyone to, to whether it's hitting your KPIS or designing the perfect product, right? If you're in SAS and you're designing perfect product, it's about getting it right. Um Specifically, in tech.

Um, and then you kind of see it, you know, unproductive meetings because all of a sudden everyone's kind of on edge, right? Everyone's coming into their meetings. Not, you know, a little worried about maybe what, saying the wrong things, maybe they're saying the perfect things.

I, I certainly was kind of worried about that. Um, you know, earlier in my career and all of a sudden I'm working overtime, uh, it's all about quantity over quality. Um, I became very much of a yes person because you, you're like, yeah, sure. I'm gonna do all these things really, really well. Right. And I'm gonna say yes to all these things. And then all of a sudden, you know, you become a demanding leader too because I'm saying yes to this and I'm a manager and, and we're all gonna do this and for my team who's on the call, I believe some of them are joining today. Um, hopefully I'm not, uh, this isn't, this isn't happening today and if it is, please call me out on it. Uh, but at home it's, you know, for those parents on the, on they're joining us, it's the perfect clean home and it's about, you know, uh staying fit and balancing work and home life and calling your parents and spending time enough, you know, enough time with family and it's, the list goes on and on and, uh, you know, you're sleeping less, doing more, less self care.

It's about them versus me and all of a sudden, you know, you're feeling super overwhelmed. I certainly was and I was really exhausted. So it's a, it is absolutely exhausting to try to be perfect all the time. And, you know, I wasn't a really great leader because of that at home or at the office. And that's one of the great ironies of perfection is that you're striving to be perfect and yet you're not doing that at all because you're stressing yourself out and everyone around you and things are just not working out. So things that change. So for me and what happened was I, I worked for an organization where I had a leader who was really all about um it was really about uh just, just doing, just doing it and not doing the care if it was right. He just wanted to get it done. Um I was implementing marketing automation at, at an enterprise organization. It was really complex stack uh or just like the data infrastructure was really complex and uh I was tasked with the one to lead the lead the organization into, into doing this. And um he's just like, just get it done and don't worry about getting it perfect.

And that was really um it was different for me and I know that sounds, that sounds basic, but it was different and it was all about embracing failure uh and not, not fearing failure. And he said, you know, Nadia, Nadia Milani, just get it done, you know, and it was really shifting from that fixed mindset to the growth mindset. And I know we've seen this many, many times. So for those of you who are on the call right now or on the talk or joining me today, we've seen this but we, we still do it. We, we are still bad at um knowing and understanding, rationally what we have to do to progress and to stay balanced and we've yet revert to bad behavior. So he was really about pushing growth mindset and, and with, with my team and led us to really, you know, view challenges as opportunity, learned to giving and receiving constructive criticism, focusing on the process instead of the end result. And he didn't want to shy away from things.

We didn't know he wanted us to, to, he really wanted us to dive into it. And I know this is very synonymous with tech culture, but he, he really lived it and, you know, and he really pushed it on us and it was all about not getting things perfect, it was about getting it done. And um that was a huge breakthrough for me for my, in my professional career. And I took a lot of that in my, in my personal and because I was still juggling a lot from, um you know, with, with kids and, and work and all the other stuff in life. Um And it was, it was a huge career breakthrough. Um Who, who, and, and which I was able to, um a lot of stuff came out of that. Like, it wasn't saved. Like, usually when you get, when you change your behavior, your behavior, you don't get rewarded for it, you don't get, you know, prizes and a words and, you know, all this stuff.

But literally, my whole career shifted all of a sudden, I, I was added to the Adobe Marchetto, fearless 50 list. I was added, I was asked to speak at many different uh conferences and talks and uh podcasts. And it's uh it was just, it was just really, it was, it was insane that the change and not only my professional but um also my, my personal life. So I have a question here. Uh How do you deal with managers who insist on pushing a fixed mindset? Yeah, it's always tough. I mean, you don't have a leader who's, who's not like that. It's about uh sharing. Uh you know, I mean, it's, it's hard, it's, it's tough but it's, it's about living, living what you believe and living uh the with growth mindset. Um and um and, and sharing how that could be uh how that could really impact your team and, and living it and, and, and hopefully demonstrating it, but it is tough when your manager isn't that way because I've worked with those people. I get the feeling that being a perfectionist now recovering one sometimes prevents me from trying new stuff because, uh, Julia, I guess the fear of failing. Absolutely. So, you know, uh, it gets in the way it gets in the way with a lot of stuff. Um, and we'll talk a little bit about that in just a moment. So, was it, wasn't this a great, great thing to learn before the pandemic?

Because here I am with my two Children virtual school and doing, you know, work and cleaning and like folding laundry while I'm in a conference call. Um uh you know, sometimes with full disclosure and sometimes without full disclosure, but, um, you know, when you, we, we, we are just uh able to accept um that we're not going to be perfect and then, then things will just just, it's just easier to, to break through to do the things that matter and when we pick those things that matter, that's when we really see that the breakthrough and talk about that a little bit more.

But so that was really the story. So I, you know, I, I was really like, and I hope, I hope you guys got this in this, in this session. Is that like, it was really holding me back? I wasn't, you know, I was constantly stressed out. I was overwhelmed. I was just like, not doing anything really, really well and it was, it was just leading into that growth mindset. And just letting it go and embracing my imperfections that really helped me uh just move forward and do some, some really amazing things at work.

And I, and it just made me reflect and think, ok, if I can apply this, not only to my, my work, my work scenario and I do this, but you know, if I can apply this to my team, my, my, my organization, but also at home, like how successful can I be in all areas in my life? But the thing is, is that perfection never goes away. It's not like it's, it's always there specifically if you have perfection tendencies, but it really helped. It really started this quest for understanding for me because I'm like, what was different this time and why did this work out and how did this all kind of happen? Like, because, you know, things sometimes kind of happen, you don't really think about it until later where, where, you know, hindsight is always 2020. So why did I, I pursue perfection? And, you know, I started to think about what is the pursuit of perfection doing to us, our teams and our organizations? Like if, if you are a perfectionist boss, you know, hopefully you can send them an invite to the session. So that's um if you know any managers, the but if you know anyone that's like this, you know, and have you ever ever felt the burden of that? Like having a really perfectionist manager who just expects too much.

Um It's, it's tough and, you know, it really, it really makes your team overwhelmed and it becomes a, a uh it becomes a situation where not only are you feeling as a leader, your team fails and, and a lot and just, it just bubbles up into the organization. So, um, so how many of you guys, ladies, gentlemen, anybody on the call, like how many of you have struggled with perfection at some point in your life. I'm just looking at the chat, if you could just put a heart, heart, if you've struggled at it. Um at some point in your life, that would be great. OK. So we're getting a lot of the Cole Erica. Oh Kel Kel Kels on my team. Come. Thanks Kel for joining Mona. OK. So we're getting at some point in our lives. It was funny because I told my mother this. Um she's um so my mother is um I'm Eastern European in descent. I'm in Toronto, Canada. But II, I grew up um uh Eastern European. So I, so I told my mother, you know, this is um well, my, my, this is my presentation today and she's um she's like, no, no, be perfect is perfect. She told me so, so I'm happy that there's a lot of people that can relate to this on the call because my mother, my mother didn't relate to, to this. What I told her about the presentation on the weekend. That's OK.

Um So, OK, this is, this is, this is interesting and there's a recent American Psychology Association study that was done and they pulled millennials in England and in the US and in Canada and um pursuit, the pursuit of perfection is up by 33% from the eighties and millennials.

That was really interesting. So this, this is really up. Um I if this is an hour talk, I, I go a little bit more into the social media aspect of it, how we're completely always hooked into digital media and looking at how perfect everyone is including on linkedin where everyone is the CEO. So that's a little bit of a uh a little bit of an exaggeration. But what was based on was three types of perfectionists. So the self oriented one. So um somebody who has an irrational desire to be perfect, socially prescribed. So somebody who's perceiving excessive expectations from others like that was me. That's why I highlighted, I, I thought everyone had a lot of expectations on me that I need to deliver on and others oriented. So placing unrealistic standards on others. So those are the three kind of buckets of perfectionist tendencies and all of them were up, all of them and um specifically on socially prescribed. So 33% up was up 30 on um on socially prescribed. Uh And that was really interesting and I and I, and it made, it made me think about OK, well, what actually is, is perfection and why are people striving to this?

So the basic Myriam definition, I mean, I hate the definition, the dictionary, but it was interesting because it was like the quality of state of being perfect, freedom from fault or defect or the quality of state state of being saintly. Like, why are we, why are we putting ourselves through? This is what my question like, why are we doing this to ourselves? None of this is attainable. None of this is scalable. And at the center of it all is is fear of failure. So this is why I think we do it is because they're fearing the fail, the failure. So, you know, I will not be perceived as smart enough, good enough or potentially fail. So um I don't know if anyone here is familiar with Berne Brown's work. Um She's, you know, really famous here in the North North American hemisphere here, uh Western atmosphere. She does a lot of work on uh vulnerability and authenticity and perfectionist. But this is this is a kind of a derivative of her uh definition of it. But we, you know, we know this like logically and I love her empathy video too. So um I, you know, perfection is, is not attain like this is this is why it, it's, it's, it's just why do I don't know why we do this yourself. I know that it's not a table. I know it's not scalable. I know it's not realistic. I know it's self sabotaging and it's, I know as we know, and I've heard it's absolutely exhausting.

Um, and, you know, but we, we put ourselves through this and, and, you know, and it really is hindering ourselves and our, our teams at work. Um, you know, this is just some static workplace perfection. It's just stress, anxiety and burnout. We, we know that logically and a team's performance begins to suffer. So not, we're not attaining what we have originally set out by having perfectionist tendencies. So if you're currently in a tech company and I know it's hard in tech. So currently I'm the marketing director and an IT company and although I've worked really closely with it, uh it teams in the past. So I've been on more on the marketing technology side of things. So I worked hand in hand with, with it departments. It's a lovely relationship.

It's like marketing and sales. Uh But now we work in it. So I'm actually in an IT organization and um we're a manage service provider and it's hard because it's like the, you know, the devil's in the details and you have to really make sure that things are, you know, somewhat perfect. But when we're managing teams and we're trying to get to the perfection, we have to be open to, to making those, those mistakes. So and I also want to outline this because I think this is where people sometimes get confused. So I think what happens is this is why some people are, you know, they say per being perfect is great like this. It's a great goal to have. I I don't know if anyone said that. So this is anecdotal, I have no data, data or science to prove that. Um but anecdotally, people, I think, I think have a tendency towards this. They think this is gonna have some outcomes, some good outcome. But there's, I think a confusion and I wanna, I wanna kind of set the record straight here between self-improvement and excellence and perfection. So there's a fine line there, there's a fine line between striving for, for perfection and striving for self improvement or excellence.

And I think that the they they go down to different paths. So um I think when you are um somebody who's seeking out self-improvement, so how can I improve myself for me? So, so that means I'm not self improving because I want to fit into somebody else's version of me. This is, this is something I'm doing for myself. And this is something that um I'm vulnerable and I'm authentic. So I accept myself and I embrace my imperfections. So when those two come together, I believe that's when we can really achieve our best self. And this is something this is a little bit from the works of both Bernie Natal, Ben Shahar, whose phd in this, he's written some really great books that kind of mashed up both of their philosophies because I, I really resonated with that and that's where the joy is. It's about being optimistic. So the optimal is, that's from Beal Ben Shahar. Um That's where, where we can really achieve our best self accepting ourselves and trying to do things better for us. It's not doing things, everything better because we're trying to make everybody happy around us.

And then the opposite of that is where we get into trouble. So remember there's two paths, right? There's the striving for excellence and then the striving for perfection. Perfection is the fear of failure. I don't want to fall or stumble, right? And seeking approval. So it's that seeking approval or acceptance. And I want you guys to think about that because when, if you've struggled with this, it's I, so I don't embrace perfection because I'm worried about how others will be perceived. So think so, think about those scenarios where you're at work and I'm, I'm not perceived as compensate enough because I don't know all the answers or um we didn't finish something on time and miss a deadline or um you know, that's a bad example. But there's other, there's so many ways that that happens and translates into the workplace and specifically in our personal lives. And when we co when those two things collide, it's, we become, we get into that perfection hamster wheel and it's like, and it controls us and we're just not able to really, you know, live life and be present because we're just worried about all the other things of uh or the them and the other people in our lives, uh and, and, and doing things for them and that acceptance versus just doing things and doing our best.

Um And for the purpose of, of self, of self improvement. So don't this is the unhappiness, perfectionist uh uh diagram here, we don't want to go there, so always go towards the joy, go towards the self acceptance. Um And, and go towards that and I think that's where it'll lead you to the best work of your career, not only for you but for your team for and not for your personal life. So what can we do to change this behavior to save us and our teams and our organization? So there was a question like, what if I have like a, a manager and that, that's always tough and connect them with me? I'll, I'll give them a talk later. Um But it, it's so these are my tips. This is um this is, this is what's worked for me. I would, I really want to stress that um because everyone's uh situation is a little bit different. Um But for me, it's really about applying that growth mindset that I'm learning from this, embracing fear, you know, that if I fail, it's, it's, it's OK. Um And, and really living that and I know it's hard but it, but it's, it's embracing that um and getting your teams to embrace. So sometimes I, I send my team that II I do send them that.

Uh just like a, a reminder, like we're, we're growth mindset, we're not fixed mindset. So let, so sometimes it's just sharing that and reminding everyone because we need a reminder sometimes. And then it's also about picking the things that are important. So not picking and saying I will do everything well. And that's where I got really stuck in my twenties. And my thirties is that I, I really got fixated on doing a lot of everything really well and we can't do that. So it's, it's, it's saying, ok, you know what, um this 11 project is really important, but the rest can fall on the wayside. Um And if or I'll communicate back, but they cannot be done on, on, in this particular timeline. We know, we know that as managers in your personal life, it's, it's, you know, being on time for certain things, um getting a nanny to uh help or cleaning. Like you gotta figure out like, what can I do really, really, well, that's really important and I struggled with that, like letting go of, um of, of, you know, handing it over to other people, but it's so important to delegate and do that and, and pick the things that you yourself can do.

Really, really well, hi, everyone. Anusha is, is uh she's, she's Anusha is now joining us. Yes, I remember myself this often done is better than perfect and in perfect action. Isn't that louise? Like it's so much better. We have a saying in our company at STG monitor that done is better than perfect. I'm with you, Kamel. Very true. Micromanaging is common side effect of pursuit of perfection, hindering one of the most important paths to growth equals. Trust. Kamel is on my team and, and you know what? He's, he's amazing. So thank you, Kel again for joining. Um I love the empathy video. We have to talk a little bit about Brine Brunette Brown's work um here in the US. She's uh and I really around the world, I think at this point she's on Netflix. So we'll check out the video. It's great. Um And we had a lot of people who shared hearts earlier to let us know that they've also um have, have pursued perfection. So the other thing is compassion and I know this is like a very like fluffy word. Everyone's like all, all the data scientists on, on the talk or like probably like great compassion. What does that mean? Um But really, it's, it's, it's just being compassionate, self, compassion and self and grace is so important to give ourselves race that, you know what? It's not perfect today. But I'm doing my best and you know what?

Yes, the kids have, you know, chocolate all over their shirts and you know what? I fed them French fries for, for lunch. And you know what? I didn't, I didn't maybe attend like four of my te 10 meetings. But you know what? They're healthy. I'm getting stuff done at work. Things are ok. Give, give each other so give ourselves that self look great. I struggle with that. I really do um As a, as a perfectionist, somebody who has perfectionist tendencies, but it's about that compassion, not only to yourselves but to others when people are having a bad day. Specifically, you know, during these times, it's about, it's about sharing, sharing that compassion to others.

I actually, it's easier for me to give. Isn't this? Isn't this odd? It's easier for me to give people compassion versus my own, my own self. Like, does anyone, does anyone agree with that? I, I just find it's very, very hard to do that. Um The programmatic programmer book has the great chapter about good enough software. Oh, awesome. I'm gonna check that out. I always try to have it in mind when I'm working to like being too pro. I love that. I'm gonna go to, I'm gonna get that passion isn't complete unless we're directing to ourselves. And that's where I struggle. I, I really do that uh vulnerability. So again, like Bernie Brown is in me, she's I think the queen of this, but it's being vulnerable and, and, and when you as a leader. So, for anyone who's a manager here are people or even at home again, uh The intersect specifically now it's, it's really about um being vulnerable, like authentic and letting, making mistakes and showing people making mistakes, maybe sometimes being a little unprepared once in a while.

Um letting people know that. No, I'm having a bad day. It's, it's about being vulnerable and sharing that because once it's a domino effect, once I do that or a doin effect is, is probably the, not the best analogy, but it's, it's um it spreads so being vulnerable as a leader, it helps everyone else be vulnerable and that builds trust and so hard.

But so necessary is me time really having that, that individual time uh carved out. I didn't do any of this um until just recently, like during COVID, I, I Biden was not good at any time at all. And I, when I had COVID, sorry, when I didn't have COVID. So when, when we had uh the COVID pandemic um that started happening, I really had to start carving that time out in my day. Uh just to focus on myself. So working out yoga, reflection, time, meditation, um journaling, whatever you wanna do, whatever you wanna call it. Um I struggled with this but I do this now and it's, it's absolutely saved my life in a lot of ways. Right? Yes, Louisa says yes. Um So I'm gonna leave you with this. There's so many quotes on, on perfection and, and if this is an hour long, I would have gone into um some of the new degrees on some of these things specifically around how social media has really changed the landscape of, of um how we feel about ourselves and driving the perfectionist tendencies, which I try to break in my, in my daughter.

Um because I've seen her sometimes struggle with it too. Um is, is perfection, is really the enemy of progress. So um if you're perfection will never ever go away. So if you struggle with this, it's really hard to make it completely go. Uh it's accepting and embracing it and having the tactics in place to be able to remedy it. So when it happens, it's about if you're journaling, you'll be able to understand, ok, I'm starting to feel uh these perfectionist tendencies and sort of again breathing and having self compassion and grace and just picking the things that you know, you need to do, but that you can do right?

And um it's just spreading that, that, that the love, the compassion, not only to ourselves, that it starts with ourselves um but to to others as well. So I wanted to thank everyone so much for joining my, my talk. It was, it, it was a small we talk, but it was fun for me. So hopefully it was fun for you. Um I am so honored and thrilled to have been able to give the have the opportunity to speak here. Um I'm so excited to join all of uh other sessions happening here, including somewhat of um of as also those who are are attending today at this session. So thanks again, if you have any questions, please feel free to connect with me on linkedin on Twitter. Um You can email me at Nadia dot Millenia at Terrio dot C A. I'm happy to connect on any of those to share um my experiences and my leadership style and I'm happy to connect even at the networking, I'll be in the networking space a little bit later today. So, thanks everyone. Have a great day. Bye.