Welcome. My name is Tiadra Summerkamp, and I'm the VP of solutions consulting and sales enablement for Upland Sales Effectiveness Business.I'm delighted to be moderating our panel discussion today, Leading Resilient Teams, Strategies for Driving Innovation and High Performance. Our 3 panelists for today's discussion are Anelise Lempeur, senior vice president of streaming at Paramount, Heather Natur, senior director of engineering, seller and consumer growth at Opendoor, and Chris Johns, executive vice president and CIO at PNC Financial Services. Our panelists will share their insights and strategies for leading resilient teams in the critical role company culture and leadership plays in fostering innovation and high performance within their teams. They will draw from their extensive backgrounds in the fast paced tech industry. When you have questions, please type them in the Q and A panel, and I'll do my best to incorporate them during our discussion today.

I'm going to ask each panelist to do an introduction and give a brief overview of their role and explain how their team is structured. Anais, Heather, and Chris, welcome to the discussion. Anais, let's start off with you.

Hi, everybody. Good afternoon. So it's afternoon over here in LA a little bit later probably where you are. As, Deidre said, so I am the the SVP of finance, for streaming at, Paramount where I focus on the Pluto TV business, which is the advertising supported side. I currently lead the finance and finance operations, a part of Pluto TV, which is segment based. So we have different sort of pods, if you will, working as business partners of the business.

Heather, and you?

Hi. I'm I'm Heather Natur. I've been in or Opendoor for about 3 years and been working in software for about 25 years. And I lead the engineering for our consumer products and growth teams. And, in case you're not familiar, Opendoor is an ecommerce residential platform, for real estate where we provide customers with certain and simple solutions to buy and sell homes. And in terms of how our teams are structured, we work cross functionally with product and design, operations, and marketing to build our customer experiences.

Excellent. And, Chris?

Hello, everybody. I am the chief information officer here at P&C, responsible for our asset management group. And what we do within asset management is provide the, wealth management solutions to our high net worth individuals, families, and institutions. I too have over 25 years experience in engineering, software engineering in particular. And, within my organization, our teams are really organized into, agile product teams focused around experiences where we provide the technology services, that go from architecture and strategy through engineering delivery, and then into technology operations and support.

Awesome. Thank you all. So let's start off with a few questions. So, Anais, I'll have you start. What are some of the key characteristics of the resilient teams that you lead, and how do you foster those traits of resilience within your teams?

Yeah. Absolutely. So a lot of the environments which I have worked in and which I currently actually working for for high growth. So so what that means is that usually the job that you are given doesn't end up becoming your job for more than maybe 6 to 7 months before it starts either sort of expanding drastically because the business that you're supporting is growing, or because sometimes the business that you're is actually, you know, sort of changing.

And so resiliency is one of the most important characteristics, especially when you're working in those high growth environments because, the the pace of change, comes with a lot of challenges. Right? So sometimes we we have to be able to, just continue to go forward despite some things being, you know, not necessarily always exactly as we had planned. So for me, really, resilience comes through sort of a number of key characteristics and, and a lot of it is, is sort of, you know, built within the team knowing that you have a super strong structure that supports you, in the good times and then also in the bad. But a few things which come to mind sort of which are more actionable are, first of all, coming from a place of of yes. Right? So being really solution oriented rather than just problem oriented. It doesn't mean that we can't vent. Many times, you know, we actually look towards our own sort of, like, organization to be able to have that, like, safe sounding board for us to talk about things, but really sort of trying to be really solution oriented to say, okay, so something is happening.

How can I help in sort of, you know, getting a positive outcome? And then finally, one of the things for me is really around communication. So so resiliency, really isn't just about sort of, like, you know, being able to stand back up when you're coming down, but also to be able to understand that there's a much bigger picture and have faith, that, you know, sort of things are are are not necessarily always linear and that the path to success might have many ups and downs.

Awesome.

Thank you. I I love that.

I think

that is so true. The path to success definitely has many ups and downs. Right? And that's really a key to resilience, especially the communication piece. I agree with that. Heather, what are your thoughts?

Yeah. I think Anais just hits it, you know, spot on. Those three characteristics, growth mindset, strong teamwork, strong foundations are really key, and, you know, I couldn't agree more. And, in fact, you know, Carol Dweck, explains growth mindset as, you know, a view that creates a love of learning and resilience that is essential for great accomplishment. And so, you know, that that growth mindset is something that we try to foster through, architecture and coffee sessions, as we call them, every Friday, where our engineers come together and share ideas, challenges. We have a manager's book club. We even have a Slack channel called growth mindset, and, these are places where, people can come together and just think creatively, think outside the box, and and, building that muscle is really important. You know, and and as Anay said, that strong teamwork really does lead to that better communication, and other ways that we try to, create more teamwork is by reducing the work in progress.

So very tactically, you know, there's a tendency to have a lot of work streams going on in progress. And, by forcing us to work together on less things, People are working together. They have a shared, understanding of of the space. So, you know, someone can go on vacation, someone can be sick, and all things don't stop. And then, you know, the strong foundations that, you know, some of the ways that we've, built that into our daily culture is, you know, basic things like solid observability and quality practices. And, you know, many of you may be saying, well, yeah, obviously. These are these are, table stakes, but it's also about, building in the the kind of paranoia when things are good that, you know, we, trust but verify.

We really, test that, what we have as our foundation is solid, and also building those processes of retrospectives and, raising risks where we need to so that when it really gets challenging, these are automatic things that people have have practiced, you know, over over time.

Thank you for that. I especially like the, Slack channel name. That is phenomenal because you're keeping it at the front of their minds, right, anytime they're in Slack. It's a great idea. Chris, anything you'd add?

Sure. I think some great points raised so far. So maybe I'll try to just build a little bit on, some of the things that Heather and Anais have mentioned. For me, when I think about, you know, what is a resilient team or or what kind of characteristics do you see in resilient teams, it's all about having that that shared vision and mission, and a team that's gonna leverage the strengths of each other and really work together. So they're they're connected, they're they're collaborative, as a team and really foster those traits. For me, what's been most important and what I've seen to be most effective is creating a a trusting and transparent team environment. When you're in a situation where you need to demonstrate that resiliency, in the face of disruption or challenges is when it's most important to have already established, a really trusting and transparent team environment. And as my peers have mentioned, you know, clear communication is is certainly key in doing that.

So for me and and some of the things that I've done, with teams over the years to create that that trusting transparent environment is, you know, leading by example. So I I don't it's not easy to see here, but I, most of the time sit out on the floor in an open, environment with the team. There's a breakout room office I can use when you need to have those sensitive private conversations. But by sitting out on the floor with the team, it breaks down some of those, mindsets around command and control and who's allowed to talk to who. And you you learn a lot and you hear a lot, by just, being directly engaged with the team, on a daily basis. So that for me has been important, in a really effective way, to create a more flat feeling organization even if there is a hierarchy to the organization.

Additionally, really deliberate about making sure there's plenty of time in all hands meetings or leadership meetings for open Q and A. We're really transparent. We use, different tools like, like pigeonhole as an example, to make all of the questions visible. I mean, we answer them. So you can't hide from the tough questions, and it's okay to say I don't know, the answer to that question, but I'm gonna follow-up. I'll get back to you. And then, you know, similarly, leverage techniques like, just small coffee chats or an open door policy, welcome sessions with new hires where we just spend, you know, 30 minutes chatting, getting to know each other, all of which helps to establish that open transparent environment, which I found to be crucial to have, when you need to demonstrate that resilience because then you've created an environment where people are gonna be feel safe about sharing their concerns, raising problems, and and bringing their ideas forward.

Makes sense. So I love that. When I think of what you mentioned, right, the disruptive events and challenges that threaten the team's resilience. I would love to hear a little bit more. Chris, why don't we start with you with what additional strategies you use to maintain the focus and momentum across your team?

Sure. So I think, you know, when something comes up in in in our industry and the technology, something always comes up. So it's, it's it's more common, I think, than, unusual to be faced with some sort of challenge or some type of disruption. It's just the the nature of them that changes. I would my best advice is during those times, there's no such thing as over communication. Right? So it's really important to keep folks feeling like they are in the know, that they understand what is going on, why it's happening, why we're doing what we're doing, how we're dealing with whatever it is that we're dealing with. So being really, really generous, with information, with sharing, as much information as you have, in different ways because people will will, consume that information, differently, but really being laser focused on keeping folks connected to what's going on, feeling like they're informed, and so there's no mystery to what's going on, and then understanding the why behind, the choices that we're making, what we what is most important, why it's most important, what can give, why it can give, so that they feel empowered on a day to day basis to be part to be making the local decisions, that they need to make, in order to keep things on track.

Great strategies. Is what would you add?

Yeah. It was just just really excellent points, and I really, follow a lot of those same those same principles, Chris. Communication for me is extremely important because I really do believe that, teams that work well actually feel as though they are being considered as, you know, the people and not just sort of a number on a org chart, and that really comes with being able to have those open communications, especially when things, are are highly ambiguous.

Right? Like, for example, when when the economies and the shape of it right now, right, there's a lot of anxiety around, you know, the future and things like that. And so it's really important for us as leaders not only to to communicate, but also to be realistic. Right? So not to consistently sort of, you know, like, overpromise or or be excessively sort of, you know, positive. Sometimes it's actually really good to acknowledge the fact that something is happening, that something is tough, but that we have sort of everybody's best interests in mind and that they should feel as though their leader understands enough about the business that they support and the people who they have do they have under their purview to make responsible decisions, which, which they would themselves support.

I think the the other thing which which really comes to mind when we're thinking about sort of, like, resiliency and challenges and things like that is really going back to also what Chris said around the mission and the vision. So, when we're thinking about so, like, especially sort of in in my world, right, on on on the finance side, if everybody is is looking at sort of, like, the business management side. There's, like, there's revenue on one side, which is really fun to grow, and then there's expense on the other side, which is really not fun to cut. But the truth is that when you work with your organization to foster really good habits and very positive revenue times, it becomes much easier to have conversations about sort of, like, expense reduction, when, you know, sort of the the the tides turn. So So I think really understanding sort of the mission, the vision, and the why is is what allows people to, feel more comfortable and confident in their leaders and ultimately, like, create that long term growth mindset as Heather was saying impact.

I love that. I think, acknowledging and validating, there's so much power in that because then you can go you could move forward, right, once you acknowledge. Heather, what strategies do you employ?

Yeah. It's really

the same thing. See, for for us, the why is about starting and ending with the customer. And that Opendoor, that's one of our most important operating principles is to start and end with the customer. And so, you know, when we keep our customers top of mind, their fears, their dreams, their challenges, and, you know, in our business, we're we're talking about pretty significant life events when we're transacting transacting on residential real estate. And we're really able to transcend our own challenges and continue to focus on what's most important to us. Our mission is, focused around our customers. And then, you know, just, piling on to to Chris and Anais, you know, people first culture is really key, especially especially in these challenging times. You know, I I I love this quote I found from Cornel West.

He said, you can't lead the people if you don't love the people, and, you know, that empathy, that deep empathy for your people, for what they need, for you know, it it's, you know, why we focus on that communication is before them, you know, so that they can be empowered to do their jobs well, to make great decisions that, that they are aligned to our, mission in OKRs is is how, they are able to maintain that focus and drive forward, you know, rowing the same direction.

Thank you. I love that quote that you shared. So key. Let's stick with you for a moment. Talk to me a little bit about how you foster a culture of innovation and creativity within your team. And are there any pitfalls that you would, suggest avoiding?

Yeah. I I love this. It's always a challenge, especially when you're driving towards deadlines and, you know, shorter term goals, but I also think it's so important for, people to build in thinking time, you know, and it's Mhmm. That that moment of quiet, whether it's on a run, in the shower, built into your schedule for an hour, That is where you get those epiphanies and those moments of inspiration. And, and and so that's gotta be sustainable. Right? We've gotta be able to do that on a regular basis, and sometimes we have to remind ourselves of doing that and remind each other. And so, creating, opportunities for people to work with others that they don't usually work with.

And our team, we we recently ran what we call the collabathon where, you know, it's a challenging time. We we have, really aggressive goals, but we still wanted to create the, you know, the hackathon, but it's as a way more where the primary goal was to work with people you don't usually work with, to learn about, areas of the product that you don't usually work on. And so, we, took 3 days and built things that were shippable that moved towards our q two goals. But when people really had fun building really quickly, got the feeling of shipping quickly, you know, not forgetting that how much they can accomplish in a few days. And, you know, it was, highly successful, very fun. We wanna do it again, often, and, you know, that's that's the key is how do we do that in a recurring way where it's not the once a year hackathon and done, but, how else can you, make it a habit?

I love that. I'm Going collab collabathon. Is that what you called it? Yeah. That's that's amazing. I love that idea. I might steal that one. Chris, what are your thoughts?

That I'm also gonna steal the collabathon idea because I love it as well. I think it's great. For me, I think one of the one of the key things when you think about innovation, sometimes people's heads immediately go to the big disruptive, innovation. And it you need to sometimes remind everybody that innovation can happen daily. I mean, Heather Heather hit some key points there about, you know, shippable products, and and and shippable work. Innovation can be really, really small things that have a big impact. And that's a great type of innovation because it doesn't take you long to get there. It doesn't take a lot of effort. So I think for me, it's really about a multi pronged approach.

The big wow events are fun and energizing, so I wouldn't suggest eliminating those, but certainly augment it with little things to showcase the small wins, spotlight and highlight those examples of where somebody or a team came up with, a way to just work differently and and more easily and and and eliminate some other blockers, or to improve a process so that they, you know, shaved an hour off of a a 10 hour or a 20 hour process, whatever incremental value that it had or or simplified the code, just took some steps to make something more maintainable.

All of those are different types of innovation, or I think we should think of those as different types of innovation because they're new ways of doing things that are generating value, possibly just for the team, possibly for the department, possibly for the whole business. But all of those are really valuable. And I think when you start, tackling it in in very different ways, and celebrating and recognizing those those little things that have, an impact, whether that impacts, big or small, it's a positive impact, you start to generate that habit, that Heather was talking about which is really the key because it's it's a it's a mindset.

It's it's a culture, that you need to to create.

Completely agree.

Anais, what are your thoughts? I mean, it's tough, you know, coming out after these super smart ladies who have so many great ideas. I'm trying to think about maybe, like, a fun one that I could add, which hasn't been which hasn't been discussed. So, something which showed my organization, as I was speaking about earlier, they're they're segment based. So I have sort of a pod which is focused, for example, on the marketing side of the business, another pod which is focused on technology and products, another one which is focused on content analytics, for example. And so one of the things which has worked really, really well in, some of my past companies is is creating rotational programs. And so what this rotational program allows is that somebody who has really sort of achieved, a level of success and and and obviously sort of, trains themselves over the entirety of one business area can actually, you know, hop into another business area as a way in which they're actually able to continue to grow their career, their strengths, and continue to get promoted.

And so one of the things which I like to tell my teams is that if if you do make a process which is too complicated, you're never going to be able to pawn it off. Right? So if you do something which actually, you know, inject innovation and inject automation and really sort of create something which is seamless, then you're able to pass it on to somebody else, which means that now your plate is free to do, you know, more high value activity.

And I think that one of the things which we have in our team is a very sort of healthy amount of, like, internal competition and, like, pride of ownership. And that really comes with, I would say, 2 big things. So the first one is avoiding all types of micromanagement. Right? So to be very clear about the why we're doing things, but allowing people to actually have that space to figure out how they're gonna get there. And then the the second thing is to reward positive behaviors. Right? So sometimes we take it for granted that sort of like good work can sometimes just go unnoticed and it's the bad work that gets punished. Instead, be very clear about, like, the reward happens when, you know, people sort of push themselves a little bit outside of their comfort zones.

Love that. Love that. Focusing on the reward and the those positive behaviors. Absolutely. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about, cross functional collaboration and alignment. How do you promote that across your team? I know that Heather mentioned collabathon, but what are some other ways? Let's go with Anais.

I'll go first. Yes. So in in my organization, it's probably a little bit different than if we're in the tech world. So, you know, most people, most chiefs of business or CMOs or CTOs or CPOs, they don't necessarily think that, why would I have the finance person in my staff meeting? Right? And so the the goal of my organization is to get into that staff meeting. And getting into that staff meeting doesn't happen because you push yourself in. It happens because you actually earned a seat at the table. And what I say is that the way in which that happens is that we actually have something that that organization values enough to actually want to be, want us to be part of those discussions. And so we have so much information as a finance and FP and A organization, but many times, like, it's stuck in a spreadsheet.

So think about, like, how that narrative can become much more of a story and take, in a sense, maybe even, like, a marketing approach as to how are we going to work with our internal brand, right, and become those people who use our finance acumen as a skill set, but our narrative ability as the way in which we're communicating and that actually wants them to have us as having that seat at the table.

And that I think is more important than anything, with modernization as we're building forecasts for, you know, huge conglomerates with very complex businesses. A couple of other businesses which I worked on before, Paramount, where, where, Spotify, you know, in the time when that company was going public, as well as Seasons Entertainment. So these are huge conglomerates. And it really is around figuring out how to incorporate the business thoughts and the leadership thoughts into the numbers and not creating numbers that then you need to put basically strategies into. So anything that ends up sort of in our business cases to our board, etcetera, have already had full business ownership. Right? And so that really involves asking a lot of people for lots of different opinions.

And once you ask for those opinions, you actually have to follow through with at least consideration.

Thank you for that. Heather, let's go to you, and then, Chris, I'll have you chime in.

Sure. Yeah. You know, I've opened our we call our teams EPods, and that, that is, engineering product operations, and design, and so we embed our cross functional collaboration, really into the core of how we work. That said, I think it's more similar than one would think to what Anais was describing. I love the rotational program and, you know, how she, really embodied, you know, working together toward a common goal regardless of role and responsibility and, you know, it's very similar to what we do. We, you know, we, define how we work more as a team, a cross functional team, and everybody is clear on what the roles and responsibilities are, but we encourage team members to assume other roles to, you know, an engineer can play a product role or a design role and vice versa, you know, to the extent that we can, and it it really gets the best ideas, the best thinking out of the team, and doesn't pigeonhole people where they don't feel like, you know, it's their place or, you know, if you are truly, if you truly understand the why, if you truly understand the goals, the metrics, then that unites, you know, the team, and, they can they can go in and out of these roles.

And, in fact, we have an product manager, in our organization who has played the engineer role, the product role, and the operations role as her actual job. As she joked, she's, you know, EPO of the EPOD already. And so, you know, that can translate to actual career changes, you know, similar to to, I think, what was mentioned before as well. So, I I I think regardless of the whether it's engineering or finance, you see very similar things, themes, sorry, about how, you know, how a team works as a high performing cross functional group.

So it's it's funny when I think back to the choices I made to study engineering in in college. I mean, I love math and science. That part was easy. But I was also pretty shy, and I'm an introvert. And I thought, oh, this is perfect. I can do, my thing. I'll get my work. I'll sit at my computer, and and that's a great fit for me. But could have been more, you know, wrong about what the environment's like. Technology software engineering is very much a team sport, as much teamwork as as as any other kind of discipline you'll find out there. And so the collaboration is incredibly important, in order to make that work. I think one of the the fascinating and and kind of beautiful things about software engineering is that no matter what you're working on, most of the time somebody else has already figured out how to do what you're trying to do.

So it's all about getting value delivery as quickly as possible, and the more you collaborate, the more you are likely to figure out that somebody else already has the answer or maybe the piece of code, or the reusable microservice or whatever it is that you can just take and use, in order to get to that value delivery as as quickly as possible.

So we've been really focused on driving more and more collaboration to identify those opportunities and and to highlight those. And we've we've done, something, that we call, the creation of a champion groups. So, we've taken folks, and kind of seeded, what will ultimately become a little bit more of a of a community, But we've we've hand selected some folks, in in key areas of focus that are important to us, you know, intelligent automation, cloud native development, DevOps, and the and the pipeline and and development acceleration, things like that, topics like that.

We've handpicked folks from across the organization, who are passionate about those topics and knowledgeable about those topics. And to some extent, I would say kind of forced collaboration among that small group just kicked it off, jump started it, got it going. And then from there, you know, sometimes really all you need to do is light a little bit of that spark, and it's amazing to see how it how it takes off. So I guess my my one suggestion for folks is don't be afraid to or or don't hesitate to maybe, I'm gonna use the word force. It's a little harsh, but, you know, orchestrate the collaboration a little bit. It will then, gain a life of its own and and and support itself, with a little bit of a a little bit of a head start.

I love that. Yeah. That makes so much sense. Alright. So if we think about, you know, our fast paced and ever changing tech landscape, it's there's always something new. How do you balance innovation with stability and continuity? In what role does your leadership play in this? Chris, I'll have you start, and then we'll go over to Heather.

Sure. So I think, you know, what what comes to to mind first, Trina, is something, Anais kinda hit on earlier, and she's talking a little bit about, you know, the importance of just being honest and and transparent and and authentic. That for me is important here as well. Right? So the more clear you can be, the more open you are with information, about what's going on, the easier it is then to help make sure that you're effectively balancing, innovation, stability, and and continuity. So, I think that's really important. The other thing that I'll I'll highlight that we haven't talked about as much yet, that I think is helpful, you know, as we think about this topic as well is, creating that culture of continuous learning.

So the more folks know, the more they're growing, it comes back to the that growth mindset that Heather mentioned as well. But creating space for the learning, because I I don't know about you, but the number one thing I hear and have heard over the years is I don't have time, because people still sometimes think about learning as this separate thing that I need to go to training for 2 days where it can happen in 2 minutes, as part of a a team activity or sitting next to somebody.

So I think creating that culture of continuous learning then just helps folks have those skills and be able to, you know, just be effective when they're thinking about innovating, when they're thinking about stabilizing, and when you're trying to just kinda keep that that that continuity when things are are continuously changing in terms of priority, having a few anchors, in your culture, can be really powerful.

Thank you. And, Heather?

Yeah. And, you know, I think a couple of different types of innovation, have been mentioned, and I think it's important to not treat at all similarly. So, you know, one thing that we do organizationally is for these very big, highly iterative, bets, where we're still trying to find part product market fit, we ring fence them. So we give them a lot of, space and time, and focus to can be a start up within a start up and iterate quickly, experiment, take a market, and do whatever they want with it. And then at the same time, for our core products, we still wanna innovate, but, as you said, you know, we need to do it in, in a way that still builds with stability and continuity. And so it's important to do those incremental investments, along with those feature requirements, along with the the new products. So finding those places where you can pair the 2 together.

You know, if we're going to be working in this space, is that actually a great time to also invest in the platform that can, be the sustainable platform for new products or new ways of building. And so, from a leadership perspective, I think we need to be able to connect those dots, you know, see those connections where, others may not have that context and bring people together to identify that, to build that. And then, I think Chris alluded to this as well is, you know, in terms of transparency, this needs to be a top level OKR. This can't be something you're doing under the table, but rather getting alignment, cross functionally with your leadership, to really show the value, the business value of investing in these scalable platforms, investing in, you know, stronger foundations. These are things that drive business value and can be attributed to real key results.

Thank you. We don't have any, questions, but if anyone does have questions, you wanna put them in the q and a. We have time probably for one more, question. Let's go with, Anais. How do you create a sense of accountability and ownership within your team? What are some of the strategies that you use to ensure that everyone on the team is working towards the same common goals?

Yeah. Sure. Like, it's I always like a 3 pronged approach because it allows us to sort of, you know, stay focused. So the first one is really they have to know where we're trying to go. So going back to the whole, like, mission, vision, reason for which we're doing things, understanding that big picture. I spend a lot of my days talking about the business and that allows me to spend less of my time when we're actually trying to solve a problem, like, going back and forth to try and figure out if we're we're our analysis is is basic like what we actually asked for because the team has really, really, really high context onto why they do things.

So that the second thing, which is, I think, maybe self evident, but sometimes, especially in sort of larger organizations, this can get lost, is having a single owner. So even, for example, in our in our day to day processes, well, as, like, projects or things that we're actually, you know, doing or working on, even though you never work on your own, nothing is ever done by one person. There's always one specific owner, and so it makes it so much easier for either leadership but also for the team to understand that, basically, they're they're they're working towards a common goal, but one person is is shepherding that. And then I think the last piece is really giving opportunities for visibility. It's extremely important, especially in sort of like the early to mid careers that, our team members are given those opportunities to shine and also sometimes to, you know, maybe not do so well in certain situations, which will allow them to, you know, understand, how to better prepare the next time.

Right? I think that if we if we sort of shelter, team members from those those opportunities to actually meet with the different leaders and look at different leadership styles and learn from different leaders that way. It's really important for them to have those opportunities, and sometimes we have to some sometimes we have to, as leaders, go out of our way to create them and not just always hope that they're going to sort of, you know, materialize on by themselves.

Excellent. Thank you. Well, thank you, to all 3 of you for a great discussion today. I know that I have certainly taken away some great strategies, resilient teams. It's it just makes a ton of sense. So thank you for sharing your knowledge. And thank you to our participants today who joined in our panel discussion. Hopefully, you took away some great tips as well. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Take care.